#5 The Call To Adventure - Evan Williams

Guest: Evan Williams, an adventurous entrepreneur dedicated to bold pursuits, family, and living a fulfilling life

Host: Luke Biermann, Managing Director of Mechanical Seal Engineering Pty Ltd, Councillor of Pump Industry Australia, Forum Chair of Entrepreneurs Organisation Adelaide, and Founder of Hard Stuff Podcast

The Call to Adventure: Evan Williams is an adventurer, entrepreneur, and devoted family man with a passion for living life to the fullest. Having transitioned from running a demanding events business to focusing on lifestyle-driven goals, Evan seeks meaningful adventures and experiences, such as kayaking across challenging waters, backpacking through South America, and planning a sailing journey around Australia and beyond with his family. Driven by a desire to create a life of fulfillment, Evan is currently developing a digital platform to connect regional businesses with adventure seekers. He exemplifies the courage to pursue dreams while balancing family, personal growth, and a love for the outdoors.

Evan's story is one of resilience, courage, and the unwavering belief in chasing dreams, no matter how big or unconventional they may seem. His perspective on balancing work, family, and adventure offers inspiration to anyone seeking a fulfilled and intentional life.

ABOUT CURIOUS AF PODCAST

Curious AF is the evolution of what started as The Hard Stuff Podcast. Initially focused on guests who’d done hard things—ultra marathons, building businesses, overcoming personal challenges—it’s now becoming a broader platform to explore anything and everything I’m genuinely curious about.
The new direction is more personal and wide-ranging. I want it to feel like a space where I can follow my curiosity and have real conversations with people who inspire, challenge, or fascinate me.

For further information, contact:
Podcast Host - Luke Biermann
General Inquiries: hello@curiousaf.com.au
Instagram: @curiousaf.podcast

Transcript

0:03

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to episode five of the hard stuff podcast. In today's episode I have on Evan Williams, Evan's got an awesome sense of adventure, um, that I really admire. And we just had a great chat about different things he's done. And he's got some awesome stories now, just listening. It started with a fairly intense story and, uh, we're both kind of laughing and. It sounds a bit funny here, dealing such a dead. We were both laughing her head. I mean that's because I've got to have it in for 20 years and I knew that the story ended well, Anyway, it's an awesome lesson and I hope you guys enjoy it. Thanks.

System Input (RODE Connect)-1: 0:41

Evan Williams. How are you going? Good man. Yeah. Good. Thanks. Oh, man. I've got you on here today. Um, because I think you've got a similar. Call to adventure. I think I'd call it as me. Yeah. Um, I think a lot of the things I do. I feel stupid because they just seem grandiose and ridiculous. And then I hear some of the stuff that you would want. I'm like, oh, that is that's awesome. And it kind of pumps me up to kind of do more adventurous stuff. Um, What I want it to start with though. Cause I love the story is if you could just dive into the birth. Latest at the view. Yeah, sure. Um, So, I guess I see his birth was. Uh, third child's means yes. So. Got to late term. I think it was bang on the 40 weeks to the day. And Jess. Maybe put poppy. Oldest kid to bed. And then just start having a few contractions. So we thought I'll ring the midwife. Cause we had to go to hospital. Um, and the midwives on the phone for a bit, and she's like, nah, So good. Like you're ages away. Call me in a few hours. Um, call me back when things are progressing. A bit more. All right. So hang up the phone and I've gone to take Bodhi, a other kid to my parents' place just to get him out of the way, because she's having contractions and got back inside 10 minutes later. And. She's like. Buddy. Ring ring their hospital back, ring the hospital back. Ring ring the hospital back in. Uh, like, uh, I think we get to come in and she's like, what can you say? I had a look and I was like, I can say that. And see that Ivy's got. This is happening in five minutes. So this is on all fours in the lounge room floor and the carpet. Yeah. And she's just coming out. Yeah. I don't know why that makes me laugh. situation, but it's just so. Yeah. So what happened? It was lucky you like the midwife that was on the fine. She was actually a midwife. It was just a. Uh, by chance that this happened, but she was the midwife that delivered. Um, second child buddy. Yep. Um, So we added like a good relationship with her anyway, and she's like a bedroom, so yeah. Um, She kind of like, calm me down a bit. She's like, Ah, this is just say the gave me instruction. What was your mindset like at that time? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was got it's happening. Like I can see your head, like. What do I do? And she's it's countdown man luck. It was justice state, like Jessica, just like, you know how, like in, when it's at full layer, they're just like now the world. Yeah. So she was just in hair traps, like. You know, like there's nothing you can't even sort of get our attention. It's just, yeah. She's in her full focus of. So what was the plan? And you guys didn't have planned a home birth. We wanted to have one. Yeah, but, um, we try to have one with our previous baby, but he came late. So then he ended up in hospital. Um, enemy tried to be allowed to have one for this one for IC, but she had like a heart condition that they found early on. So then they didn't allowed to be home birth even though. So this was just as kind of rebellion against the system. You can tell me what to do. Yeah. Yeah. So what happened? Um, so yeah, anyway, I'm freaking out and then she's the Emma, the midwife she's calming me down a bit. She's running the hospital, she's running the ambulance for us. Um, and then she's gone. Okay. If you're just going to have to. Get back there ma and. Taz on the ground and. She put up, catch the baby. Um, And what was freaking me out the most was like, when couple more contractions later, the baby's half. Yeah. But she's like, oh, I see. Still in her, like, It's fluid SAC. Yeah. Say luck in life. So she looked like a big balloon, like sort of like it's not a vape. I didn't even know what it was. So it was like, it's not a baby. I think she's like, But in an organism. We've got Bobby laughed about. It's just so intense. It was intense, man. And it was just, it'd be water blind and she's like, oh, that's, that's fine. That can happen sometimes. Um, you can either burst it now. Well, the baby's still giving birth or you can wait till she's coming out and then like rip it off at face. Oh, what'd you choose? I'm just going to leave it. If it's on. And then anyway, she came out, I called her and then the thought kind. Slow down. How quickly did she go out? Oh, my two minutes left. Yeah, it was so fast. No time to, there was no time to like, even consider like, thoughts about it. It was just like, it was on. Okay. What did you like catch it? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Quarter. sorry. And then it was well. Um, as the, as she actually came out the, the sec burst, but it was just like this. All over it. Before we go any further. I just want to make clear because we laughed about this. Everything's okay. The. The babies. Healthy now. Laugh about it now. When you've drawn about it. But we should explain that before we started the story. Anyway. Yeah. So call the baby. It's fully the sock. Yeah. So this act burst, I think rounder body somewhere. Yeah. And then pass over to Jess and then, but then that's when it got like really intense because she wasn't breathing. And she wasn't shit. Um, yeah, she was just blue, like anything like that. So, I've seen cause we've had other babies have. And it's just like, do the rubber thing. Roberto trying to stimulate and get her to cry. Yeah, but she called him to make these occasional Goodling sand, but nothing was happening. We still on the phone. Yeah. Yeah. So she's on speakerphone on the land. Yeah. Um, ambulance, where are they at? Um, she's like, oh, are you going to have to give us some breasts? Cause she's not. Can't breathe. I'm going to go as a heart rate was gone. So that's, I just jumped straight into that, just given a few breasts. Now have you got like. I don't know how much it would help. Have you done your first day? Like did that? Yeah, certainly the first aid. Like years ago, but they don't really go on the babies really, other than, other than like the simple thing about tiny Bresson. If their heart's not beating me to do the tiny little things, but it was being yeah, but it was just that she couldn't breathe. I forgot about this. One of the story. Yeah, it was intense, man. And then, um, few breasts and that was kind of, she was coming to me a little bit, but not really. And she. Your toes, you couldn't breathe. Um, in the Midwest psychiatry, she's probably got no. She probably got more fluid in her lungs from how quick it'll happen or how quick the birth wasn't everything. Yeah. So she's just like you just going to have to. Try and suck she'd out of her lungs through a math. So, yeah. If I had to. Put my mouth over and just suck up all this shit. And you're getting. Yeah. And that was crazy, man. How long did that, did that? I had no conception of light at the time. Yeah. It was just like, I was just listening to Emma, tell me stuff. And I was doing. Because you would just like thinking you'd drive into hospital and then all of a sudden. You're in it. Yeah. In this situation. Life and death. Yeah, but not in your life and death. It's worse. Like. Yeah. So, oh, But time, like we weren't thinking about that at the time. I was just because it was such a hectic thing. I think I was just. Fully in design of listening to what she told me to do. And I did it. Yeah. So she. So Jess at this stage, Jess was just sitting there like. Like against the couch. She's just given birth. Like she's obviously. The kids still both in bed. Yeah. Thank God. That would have been so. Yeah. Uh, well, lanky was in bed and monkey was over at granting pops. Yup. Um, I live next door, but, um, yeah, so we did this sucking thing and got some fluid out of her lungs. Spit that out. And then outsized, um, guys. Sorry. And then she kind of came to a bit and then that was, she was kinda, yeah, she cried. And then I put it back on to Jess and she, and she tried to feed straight away. Um, and that was kind of it, man. Then what did you do? Um, Dan, I think. Just like what the fuck? Yeah, for a few minutes. What the fuck just happened. Yeah. And then Emma was still on the phone. She's not. And nobody's arrived at that point. No. And then the ambulance arrived about 15 or about 10 minutes later. It's because you live in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Yeah. Um, And the ambulance three Ambose just came screaming down the driveway. We live on this big property. So we've got like this long drive and there's this three ambulances. Just like siren's gone. The driveway and then. His mom and dad live on the property too. And another house they have. Moms com cause she thought, I didn't even know what was going on. Nah, they didn't know because I dropped him off thinking that. You guys using live and nothing. Yeah. It's kind of thing. And she seen three ambulance truck. And we've gone, what the fuck has happened. So they moms come running in the door. I've seen him on the ground. Oh, fuck. Um, But yeah. Then the AAN bays, I mean, they. Like turned out. They were like kind of students or they were just fluffing about a bit and not really. You know, Not really. Now the hard work mate. Yeah. But then it turned out she got like a bit of the minor and stuff. For being called from north. Being wrapped up. She was all wrapped up on Jassen they got their own and they, they took her and tried to do things and, but they didn't really need to do that kind of stuff. But. Did you, and I'm going to hospital after that. I sent him into hospital and then. They, as I do in hospitals, I need too many. Sort of checks and stuff. I mean, ended up there for a few days, but. So do you think that. Experience. Sorry. What do you think that experience affected you? Emotionally over the next few weeks. Oh, yeah, probably still to the day, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's really heavy, man. It is. That's about as much as we laugh about a fun, it would've been good to laugh about. Yeah. There's a lot of times I've thought about it. And you think about what, you know, It's bad things that could've happened instead of. What did happen? Yeah. Hello. Um, I mean, the good thing about it is that. I did get to see like how you know me and just both reacting something. Is heavy. Is that. Yeah, well, it's not really a test drive. It's not really like, oh, we will. We just wanted to see how he'd react just in case something happened. Nothing happening. Thinking about that sometimes I wonder how I would be in. Situation. Yeah. Yeah, not that particular situation, but anytime. Yeah. Fantasize about how you would deal under extreme amounts of pressure, and then you'd do it. I have a bit of a puddle, but then it just traumatizes you. Yeah. But yeah, man, it's definitely a life changing one. Do you think. Like Gabby, a bit of depression or something like how during this effect. I think it's probably more driven me more to just chase. The things I want to do in life more than. Anything else? I mean lucky. It just gave me a sense of like half red Joe. Lofi Israel and yeah. I guess raising your kids are and being, being there for your kids and all that sort of stuff. I went on a podcast. But two days ago, somebody else's podcast and, and spoke about this. Like. My journey through starting the business. And then getting to a point where I was working 70, 80 hours a week. I was, this is when the girls were young. I was barely home, just like, you know, felt alone. I was. That's when I started having like panic attacks and stuff, because I was getting migraines all the time and I was so stressed out and you just get to a point gun. W w what am I actually doing? Yeah. I'm trying to make money. Two. Provide a great visit, everyone bang on about this all the time, but I'm trying to make money to provide an awesome life for my family. Yeah. I'm never home. Miserable. You know, like what, like what's the actual point? Where's the purpose of this? And like when, when is the awesome part going to happen? Look, if you just keep. A lot of people would never happen. Um, And that's. Yeah. And that's one of the things that kind of, I dunno, I like hearing about your story because. What'd you say other people doing things they're going like that same kind of outrageous. And you think that you can't do that? Yeah, I can do that. Yeah. So, yeah. And even like, there's different levels. Like you want to do something. In life as a goal, whether it's with your family or whatever, and you might not be able to achieve that because of financial reasons, but is there another way you can do that? Yeah. A little bit. Yeah, it's a little. A little bit differently than the lavish way. Which apps you. Yeah. And with a lavish lavish, why even make it any better? Yeah. True. Yeah. Um, So. I haven't spoken to you this about this for a bit, but like, are you still planning? To do the, uh, south of the world. Yeah, a hundred percent. So what's the plan. That's my dream now is to. Well, I guess I was chasing like, since. You know, Well, when I met Jess, my. I was kind of in that solo travel. Traveling around the world mode and. Where were you? Why aren't you in. Oh, you in London, just come back from south America. Yeah, whenever I think of you and hear the word travel. I always think about a photo that I saw of you. I think on a big swing in Ecuador. Those are the people photos. I was brought up, but this was about a big swing and Ecuador and life. Yeah. Yeah. In the jungle. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I. I did a solo backpacking trip three. Then my mid twenties, and that was kind of very different to, I guess, how I see travel now. Um, But I've got so many life lessons from it. Um, but I mean, What's the difference? Like what's the difference because I think some people have the mindset of. My brother's very like this. Like when you have kids are all that's over, do you know what I mean? And basically you're screwed for. 18 years. Which I think is ridiculous. I don't agree with that at all, because I mean, you still got to have your happiness and your freedoms and all those things. And I think travel for me now. It looks different in that I want to issue more challenging, physical things. Abroad. Um, with some mountaineering or. Um, this idea of sailing around the world. Um, and when we had our first key poppy, I was really intent on doing some Anthony hearing courses and go and chasing high peaks. Yeah. I'll do that. Yeah. I'm still getting to do that. But I think that goal is a little bit selfish for me right now with the kids being young. Because when you do an expedition like that, you're away for probably a month. Yeah. The answer would be their kids, you know? And that's probably a bit much to ask for. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. Isn't that especially. Especially at the age. It's a hard age. All at school or something. I can surely do that, but, um, I came to the idea of the sailing thing. I've seen thing I saw on YouTube, a family sailing around the world. And, um, That kind of drew mean? Because it's like a real connective. Like. I've been learning to sew. At the local racing club. It'll be accruing fair. Like these race boats and stuff, and there's a lot to it. It's a lot of mental engagement. There's a lot of thinking. Yep. It's a deep connection to nature. Yup. Um, it's challenging. It's physical. It's all those things, but by a big enough boat, you can put your whole family on there. You can do it in a slow way. That's you can work along the way, or you can do there's so many different ways you can, so you can see that now. This is the first thing that pops into my head was just interested or. She's very interested in. Doing a year away. Um, I don't think she's too fast about how that looks and she was definitely wasn't. Fully onboard the same thing, because in my head, the way I thought it would have to happen. It would be sell the house. They'll everything. And buy a half a million dollar boat and go, yup. Um, but it seems. Like researching as much as we can and talking about it more, we found. We think we've found a way that we can buy something a lot cheaper. Um, Ran the house out. Um, and that'd be, we still be cost neutral. So you see won't have any costs. If we rent our house out and buy something under a certain price range. Yep. And then start with Australia. Where we, if we travel from here, Up the east coast into the islands and all that sort of stuff, but take our time and do. Um, you know, so work along the way, whether it's work online. Um, the initial plan was you were going to go to the Mediterranean. I still really want to do a whole circumnavigation of the world. Yep. But I think as a first step. I think if we do Australia, because we can keep our house. Yeah, we can still have the freedom of no like income, stress. Yup. Um, B B shape. Um, and we can pick out little jobs on the way. Yeah. Under the first year in Oz. And then if we really love the whole. That whole lifestyle and that way to do it. And then we might consider upgrading. And doing it. loop cause that, oh, well, if you taking your time, seeing everything, you can taking some breaks. Over off seasons and that sort of thing. You can probably take your five years. Easy. Yeah. Yeah. So. Before, instead of just jumping straight into that, which I would be a hundred percent. Mobile awesome ups from more conservative than may, which is probably why. A good fit, I guess. Um, but that's yeah, that's I think a good start is to do let's stay reasonably local in Australian waters. We're exactly the start. Well, I'm going to fight in Newcastle next week or two and have a look at a boat. Um, so if there's one out there, that's looks pretty interesting. It's a catamaran that's, um, big enough for a whole family and probably an extra crew member. I wouldn't be de. Overnight passages and that sort of stuff. Yep. Um, so what do you mean by that? An overnight crew member? So when you're going from point to point, like some, some light sales might take here. You know, even a week. You know, Yep. So you'd like, full-time, you need people on not watches and that sort of stuff. So. Um, when there is those multi-day things, we'll get creams on board and there's a big community around the world of lot of people just looking to CRE. And also they can get places. Yeah. Just get to places or just get experience on boats and say, So when you, if you don't own the whole world, what does that look like? You have you do it with multiple families or. Well, this is absent, like communities, our families salient. So they will probably will have their own boats. Um, but a lot of people bring on crew members to help weed, like running of the boat, sailing it. Um, and that sort of thing, when it is over not passenger seat, say in the Mediterranean. If you're going to do a passage to. What's that. That how to get to America, the Atlantic crossing or something. That's like 10 days. So. 10 days and 10 nights. People often get a couple extra people on board. How many kilometers would that be? Just something to get some. Oh, yeah. Okay. Nautical miles. I don't know where that. Kilometers. Yeah, I dunno. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of days. Yep. So you can be at safer, you know, 10, 20 days in some things, but so we'll just start from Australia. Yeah, or that depends, like if we do the Australia thing, we'd love it. We'll probably upgrade a boat to something. Be more suitable for like ocean crossings. Um, some MP. Safer and stronger. And. Better. Yeah. Um, and then in that case, if we do that, then we will just hide around wherever we find the best deal in the world. So it could be. So you could sell the one that you. Yeah. So there is a lot of bites for, so in the Mediterranean, because it's a big, popular area for. But there's also a lot in. But the Caribbean. Um, love Florida coast like that east coast USA. Yeah. It's also popular spot, so yeah. Yeah. There's lots of places. And then like, wherever you find a deal, you just start there. Right. Yeah. So what does the Australia trip look like? If it's a year. Like. It could be, whether it's like, if I, for example, if I get this boat Newcastle, I decided whether I just leave it there. For a few months before we go. Um, or where the assailant back to Adelaide and then have the time to go and fix it up. Over a six month period or something. So we might leave from here and partly from the east coast. Yep. And it's probably just cruising all of the east coast and. And in the islands and I need to live in the boat. Yeah. So, and then you can just pull up somewhere. So that's corrupt. Yeah, it's a beauty. Most places is free because you can anchor. And it might be the occasional time you need to go into marina and it costs a little bit of money, but yup. Um, generally you can anchor places and, um, you have a little dinghy to get to the shore and. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, this one's 43 foot. Um, so catamaran to house big central area. Yup. What's that 50 meters. 12 minutes, 15 ish. Yeah. Yeah. So it's pretty big. It's. I mean, it's like, How good the catamaran is, is like, You know, if we wanted a single hot boat, they're cheaper, but you'd want for a family. You want something over 54, which is very hard to handle because of you. The size of your sales needed and everything to get the boat moving. And that's for strategic stability. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, yeah, a lot moves a lot more. Um, Does it, how much does that cost? So it depends on the condition. We are willing to do to it. And say my house single haul boats can be. Um, you know, if something is family sued or we could pay anything from 80 to. 80 grand to lock a million dollars. Yeah. And then catamaran. It's one that I've found is from the eighties. So it was really odd. Um, that one's about a hundred. Got to. To buy a good world, cruising wine. You probably start at 500, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So then you, yeah. Wow. So a lot of families that do, uh, uh, working LaVar styling. The other one is the world crazy families. Yeah. So they are the work with like doing YouTube. Um, or a couple of them. Um, Like how they're in businesses and they still operate from, from their boat. VyStar Lincoln, that sort of thing. It's getting. Easier and easier these days. I guess it just depends on how many hours a day do you want to work while you're doing it? You know, that's still, still a job. Trying to run a boat too. Right. So, yeah. And. So what's your plan. Yeah. Yeah, by the bar. Yeah, we're going to get bothered by it and try and just. Be debt free. So like, I mean, have I debt covered by rent and that sort of stuff? Yep. That's the main goal at the moment. Yep. So their main income neutral. I get to keep the house. That doesn't really matter, but you're looking at principal and interest or just interest. We were probably just, yeah, if we can just do that, I think you can do a few years, change it over to interest only for a few years. A couple of percent now. Yeah. Yeah, because of. We'll see how that works. But it looks like at the moment we can rent out as he is, um, with some extra drawn out for a boat and the, um, cost new truck. So yeah. Um, car lines and then go to, well, I would imagine that would be the more difficult thing. In Australia because of the cost of living is so much higher. Like if you're sailing a year, In the Caribbean, I would imagine that the cost of living will be significantly lower. So if, I guess it'd be harder to work, I'm not really by styling. Because. I'd imagine that you need a lot more money to live. If you're doing the Australian east coast weather, whereas you'd be doing. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think. Okay. Obviously, you've got like a bit of few course area. And then when you're motoring your boat or whatever, and. Yeah, you got your food costs, but you don't really have. Other than maintenance, you don't really have. I'll do it just for food, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, same thing around the world. Once you're in like the Pacific islands or somewhere, really remote fee prices are going to be expensive. Yeah, unless you. Live off. Fishing. Free that you find at. Yeah, no. Just spear, everything. Yeah. When's that happening? Um, we're hoping to be. October 25 now or hoping to leave. Okay. So we're looking to buy something. Very soon. So hopefully January. Yep. Um, and then spend. How long would it take to get it from Byron bay to here? Uh, it's in Newcastle. Thinking about three weeks. Three weeks or so. Hi, Taylor. Yep. Um, and you do that with the family or by. So I'll probably do that. I'll probably get just some help to do that. Yep. Well, they're doing. A couple of stints or. Um, not, I'm not sure yet. Yep. Um, they affect, it'd be ideal if we could get it back here, because then we can. I can spend like a day or two a week. Yeah. Like fixing it up, getting it ready and getting comfortable with it. Yeah. Doing little weekend trips with the family, go to KR and go to York's and go to. What Lincoln and all those at all. You know, we can link the trips. Yeah. And figure out how that's going to work before we just go. Just doing five years. Around the world. It's such a wild idea. Yeah. I'd never convince just today. I know that I'm there yet, but I'm hoping that whatever. Like on the F myself, but I don't know that my wife's. And yeah. Yeah. But if this trial run, I'm just, if it all just goes the way I'm thinking. They're going to be, which is like, perfect. At the background. Better get along with. Um, Yeah. At the moment, if you look at like my kids dynamics as a lot, probably would've thrown Bodhi. Overboard like day one or. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see how it goes, man. So another thing that kind of. I don't know, I followed the mindset sometimes of. Let's say with the business or I'd like, I've come so far with the business. But I feel like I'm stuck in it forever. Whereas, it seemed like you guys had. A very successful business. From looking from the outside anyway. I mean, yeah, it was what was the decision to wrap that up? Was that, was that around after the. No, that was before. It was, um, I guess one of the main reasons we decided to wrap it up was because ICU is coming a third kid. And we were both men Jasper, both so heavy in the business. Um, So it was demanding was that it was demanding. Um, it probably didn't have to be about, we couldn't. Let other people take control. I don't think. Why was that? Because they would be capable or because it was. The internal battle. I think it was like a. We're not so much for me, I think more safely. Yes. More so like. You know, it was her thing that she's created or wiping that we've created. Yeah. Um, so I think it was hard for her to let go of control and it's been. Very common problem. I mean, I had an experience probably. About six weeks ago now, maybe. It was a couple of weeks. Well, I bet a month before the iron man. Where I was so stressed out. I was training for the iron man. I was, I had a few personal issues going on, um, plus a few huge work issues going on and I could feel myself. Like. Burning out. I was burning. I could feel when like my neck was getting bad, I was on the brink of, I guess, what you could call a nervous breakdowns and all that. And I think it was like a Thursday night and I just went, I'm not doing this. Like, this is not. Like, this is not. Uh, it's not worth it for me. Like I'm not sending myself into another loop of stress. I'm going to be doing an iron man in a few weeks. So I made the decision that I'm not going to work for the next two weeks. Yeah. Just like then and there. And I said, I'm going to delegate literally everything. So I started doing that. Um, and then like all my deep fears. Of the world crashing down. Didn't really happen. So I think with the business now, like if I want to see, do you think you had to be pushed to that limit to make that decision to let go of it? Well, I've been pushed that limit so many times. It's, it's definitely a cycle, right? It's. Aye. And I think I'm getting better at that cycle because I think up until literally, probably the last six months, I had such a obsession with material wealth, being the, um, key to happiness. Right. And then you go enough of those cycles, whereas I need to hit this amount of money and then I'll be happy. And then you get to that point, nothing changes. I've had enough of those cycles now that I'm trying to split up. My happiness and then my material success. I think that two very different parts of my life. And I think I joined them together. While in peril. Consistently putting all my eggs in the basket of. When I'm a succeed successful entrepreneur, then I'll be happy. Yeah. But like it whenever I think that way I just get to the point where I, I hate my fucking business. I was so stressed out. I'm not present with the kids. And, you know, I think we, we, we briefly touched on this before we started recording. It's like, Yeah, this is why I love talking to you because you know, I think you naturally have that sense for adventure. Whereas I, it, for me, it builds up and then I just go, ah, fuck it. I'm signing up for an iron man. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I'm trying to, like, I've been meditating a lot, like lately I've been trying to, I put my business kind of in. Um, non-growth mode. So just kind of turning the wheels a bit. Yeah. And the other thing is like, I put so many eggs in the business basket. You know, That 12 months ago. W a few things, a bunch of things went wrong and I just found myself in. Like hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. And like a really bad position. And we've had like the toughest year financially over the last 12 months. Um, I don't even know where I was going with that. Did you think like that? I mean, I've thought about this a bit with that whole mindset of, you know, working hard to be successful and all those things. And I really think it comes from like, Father's generations. Yeah, that was on that, but my life, I grew up very conservative and. My family, like my dad ran his own business for his whole. Well off and before that his dad did too. And he's dad and him ran business together with these other brothers and all that sort of stuff. So it was like from a young age, like for me it was work and the house, as soon as you can, you know, all that stuff, settle down. Yeah, that's what I did. Like I, you. My first house was where. I was at 18. Yeah. And like C, but then I've just. I be guessing I did that first gap. You've traveled in that. What flipped me completely. 180. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I. What's the opposite to abundance, the mindset of scared that there's a big mind, the scarcity mindset back then where I'd been. And I watched like, so my mom never worked, so it was only my dad. And he was a workaholic. I watched him work himself to the bone. My whole childhood, but we never go anywhere. And then he started his own business. Um, You know, Well, after all our kids were a bit older. And he finally kind of maybe got somewhere and then he got. The divorce happened, any fucking lost, everything. And started again. And that's when I started the business in his business, his ashes and all this blah, blah, blah. But. Like I watched that and go, he busted his fucking galleys. He just got screws every level. So why do we. Why don't we continue to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can't. I agree. You're carrying thing. Yeah. Well, I also had this conversation. The other day with someone. Like I'm starting to value. I guess. Like, I think in the early days of the business, I was so obsessed that I didn't put any value in my own kind of mental health. And, and you. I was always so stressed. And now we're to the point where it's like, if I can't grow the business while maintaining a good mindset and having, and being present with the kids. Yeah. What's the point. Exactly. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, um, so that's where you guys were at with the other business. So that's why we, well, we sold that because we realized. I mean it wasn't doing our relationship much. Good. Running that business, the event stuff. And, you know, it was really busy and it was lot financially. Right. And everything. Um, but we were both so stressed about both. You know, it was just like, there was no disconnects between. There's no separation between business and life, family life. Um, because our business is run from home. Um, so if ever we had a conversation, it was about work and then. I guess that dynamic wasn't working for us as a relationship. And then with the third baby on the way. We were thought, oh, how if we can kind of let go of control and bringing in people to help us run this business, then. How did you attempt to do that? We talked about doing it, but we. The way we had structured and set up a lot. We were pretty low price competitive with other people. So there wasn't really a lot of money to. Be putting people in those positions. Yeah, you're running. Right. Well, yeah, it's a very common story. Like you're running extremely efficient Lee. Bring other people on you've got to raise your prices. So you basically got to somehow change. Like you're, you're at a ceiling because you've got to basically completely change your product and everything, to be able to go into that next price point. Got to go in deeper before you. Yeah. I mean, it will say couldn't bring people on to do the amount of work that I was doing on a weekend or. Um, Jess was doing either. So. Um, yeah, we just decided that maybe it's time to sell it and. We did that and it was great. Yeah. So he sold it and then icy came. I think. Three or four weeks after we settled. Did you sell it in one hip? The business, we had it for sale through one. Uh, person, it didn't really work yet. Um, I think just how to advertise privately. Drew a bit. Um, but she wasn't really that Saudi person either more. Yep. Um, so we ended up finding this broker. That was great. Um, and she sold it within like two weeks. Really? Yeah. She saw it really quick. And, um, yeah, she was almost. Yeah, we did. Um, and she was a, she used to say lock. I can and can't and back there, and she is, she's really good at like sewing, all the numbers sort of. What the business was rather than just. Yeah. You know, the services we provided. What's hard. Bits is a cell. Cause it is. Not really. Um, it's one of those things where it's like, you got to find the right person because it is such a owner operated business. It was. Yeah. Yeah, but we had developed like pretty good commercial clients and corporate clients in that like function and space and the retail activation space. Do. You know how the valuation was done. Can you dive into the other? Is that nothing new? I think it's more just. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Once we sold that IC came when we had, I think, I mean, we have our BNB that we continue to run, but other than the BNB, I think. So all together without doing any work. Yup. Other than looking after the property in the bay. So, yeah, that was a good time to reset and. And, um, connect back to the family. But then, you know, you get to the point where. Well, I started telling me to go and do something else. Yeah. She was sick. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Yeah. So I know we're glad, I'm glad we got rid of that and we'll do more businesses again in the future. And we've got a couple in the pipeline now. Um, But yeah. I think now our focus is on, well, my focus is on how do we create this lifestyle? Even if it's temporary. Yeah. Yeah. What are you optimizing for? Basically? You know, Lifestyle designers. It was a business fits into that then. Great. Yeah. Well, I just have this huge stress now about not living like, you know what I mean? Like you've struggled with that for the last 10 years. I was anxious again. Well, I've always said, you know, one of my biggest feats. It's getting to 50 and looking back. And going, oh, that was a waste, you know, like I didn't do anything that I wanted to do. Yeah. And you can always work. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, that's the problem. That's what I was. I don't know whether we spoke about this before we started recording, but with the business, like. You know, there's such a fear of. Um, What's that fallacy called, like the spent cost fallacy, like. I mean, so deep. With the business. Yeah. Um, You know, I'm so scared about anything happening to it because I've come this far. I feel like that'd be a big loss. Yeah, a big loss and also like, ah, you know, if I ever wanted to try something else, You know, I like the first five years of the business was so brutal. There's just like such a deep fear of ever having to go through that again. Um, yeah. Yeah. That's also probably lessons learned there that yeah. No, not necessarily. Definitely. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. So I think the lessons you learn through businesses so valuable in every aspect of your life. I've said this before. I say it too much. People are probably sick of it, but I think business is. Fundamentally a. Entrepreneurship is a, is self-development described, does disguises wealth creation. I think the personal growth that you get from developing a business, having to. You know, deal with employees and stuff like that. Puts you out of your comfort zone on many different levels. Yeah. Constantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about, uh, the kayak. They can go home. That's interesting. Yeah, it was good. Fun. How did that come from? Well, I did my. Like I played footy my whole life. Yep. Um, and. Uh, getting too old and playing footy too old and too fat. I blew my knee out. Yeah. Did my ACO. Um, And I was just searching for something to do while I couldn't run. Because I found him to say I was getting grumpy for not being at an exercise and. And getting fat. So. Can you run now? Are you still kind of not, I got back to running recently. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So. I'm feeling a lot better. Mentally. Yep. Yeah. Um, but that was the second time. So this is a few years ago now that I did the kayak. Um, So, yeah, I just, it was Christmas. Tom was coming up and had done Monday. I'd had my surgery, but it wasn't any, any back to running. Yeah. So kind of a little trip to do from Acorda kangaroo though, where we live. Um, to kangaroo island. And I ran Dan or I didn't run a robot block. And I've walked from home, which is up. Um, kangaroo. Um, It's very the gourd and Dan to the beach. Yeah. And we'll walk, met me at the beach and then I'll call it all. Did that walk? How long is that walk? There's a few hours. Yup. Yeah, probably half a day. Yeah. Oh, through the on could bring you to national park and yep. Um, down the back of here pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. So I did that and then wife met me at the beach with MuckRack. And over a few days. The whole mid coast to Cape Jervis. Um, and I wasn't really like an expedition. I'd sort of quiet for the day and wherever it ended up more often come pick me up and then we'd go stay at an Airbnb somewhere. Yeah. Um, we had a couple little kids and it was Christmas time. So yeah, it was a little bit of a holiday mix with some, doing something different. Um, so it took me a few days to get down to the. To the coast and I was going to cross the KR the next day, but the weather was horrible. Um, and that stretch of water is pretty notorious to get gnarly. Um, yeah. I think it's been swam a couple of times, which blows my mind. Yeah. Yeah. The car, that idea was 19 Ks across. So I wasn't. Yeah. Okay. From Cape Jervis. it's gotta be like 10 or 12 hours. So Alan did that technology Ks, uh, so did it in under three hours, but I didn't do it that first time because it was, the weather was so bad. So we actually crossed a KR in the car and did a bit of a holiday. And then how's. This quick, um, a few days later. We came back and we're going to get the ferry back and it was a perfect morning. So I was like, oh, screw it. I'll just quiet back. Yes. That's what I plan to do anyway. Um, yeah, then jumped in and it was, it was awesome. So are you clog? Back from back from chaos instead of across. Yeah. Um, Yeah. So I did the coast to CA. To where I was going to go across, but the weather's too bad to do it. So. It was, it was a freak year or anything. Uh, when I did it, it was eerie because it was sorry, car. And that water's meant to be kind of rough and swelling and. Deep. Could you always see both land? Uh, this right in the middle is it's really hard to see. Yeah. Yeah. And it was kind of a Misty. It was dead calm, like the last, like, it was not. Not even like a ripple kind of thing. So yeah. I suffered what flight pass you in the water. And it was like, I think sort of squid head. No past. And I thought that's been much. Yeah. But yeah, it was weird because it was so calm and then kind of Misty, it was a physically demanding or. Yeah. And you can take your time. You can try and be. You know, you can try and go as fast as you want, but just at a good seven KNN I pay. So it was been under three hours. Have you heard of those guys there? They're pretty young at the time. And they kayak from Australia, New Zealand. You're the last guy that tried to do that, though. I'm not surprised. So I went to an event where. This guy spoke. It was. But his mate. And they built a custom kayak and one of them would sleep in the back of the, that would've been the front. Rowing. Ah, fucking met. Well, the crazy thing is what they did next. Um, James Cason. I'm going to fuck it up. Anyway. He. D he wanted it to be the first. They want to be the first two to go from land to the north park, south pole or north pole there's no, north pole is. The Arctic there is. Is it the sound? Is it One's a south pole. Antarctica is a south. Yeah. And there's an Arctic at the north pole. Yeah, this is so for the bottom of the way. no, that's all that's up there too. Okay. So Bridgewater. It was south pole and what they did. They want to be the first people on foot. To go from the coast. To the south pole and back to the coast by. Yeah. Carrying sleds. Yeah. Cool. And they tell the story and it was fucking crazy. Um, As a guy, as another Australian guy, he's a vet or a doctor or something. Jeff Wilson ate as Nali. He does wild exhibitions like that. Yeah. That's the way he's like he takes sleds in. I think it's more the Arctic, one's lucky that you get a sled in a cot and he would do like a 30 day. Tracking. In the snow. Trying to get some rewear random. The most to coast or something. I don't know how I want to. I think that kind of stuff would interest me a few years ago, but I don't know if I. Sue death defy. And I feel like it's. It's quite irresponsible with three kids. And also I'm not attracted to that being the first to do something either. It's more just like, you know, you can go somewhere that a million people have been before and it's still an adventure for you, right. So, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. You know, you can. Climb a mountain that still. Really. Amazing experience for yourself. yeah. It's always someone trying to find the slightly different way to do the same thing. The first thing, you know, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, the car was fine. Um, I dunno. I didn't think too much of it, to be honest, it was just sewing to get me moving again. After. After an injury that. It got me down. Yeah, it was kind of jealous. Yeah. I thought I'm going to do it there and back to prove a point. You probably could do it again. It back in the day. I've just got the fishing. I just used a it's a sea kayak, but. Sort of one of the cheap plastic ones. Yep. Okay. He has another one. Um, but yeah, my old man's just signed up to do well. You signed up. I mean, it's made her doing the whole length of the Murray. Yep. Next year. I'm sorry. It takes ages. Who's doing that. Sorry. My dad. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, so that's, how long does that take? Doesn't it take six weeks. Yeah. Say. There. They're going to stop. And I think it's at 10 BSA. I'm hoping it works out. After our trip to the snow next year, that I won't be able to join him for a section over. Um, Yeah, they're doing that, but they'll be not, I don't know if that's. Hi, Corey, there it's just floating down there. It's just it's cool. I guess it is. And it's a long way, so yeah. It's a long time. Like. It's a long time. Eight weeks is a long time to see it. No. I had your back Gaudreau. Uh, your, because I I'd take out the fishing club. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I'm glad I did those few days before to like, just be. I did more kilometers those other days. Yeah. Paddling down the coast. Um, but I guess I got me a bit more conditioned to doing. It's crossing to. It sounds funny, but that was the hardest part of the iron man, the six and a half hours on the bike. I just couldn't get comfy in the last, like two hours. My back was just inside. I was on the board. Yeah. Yeah. The last two hours, my back and my neck were in so much pain. Because you're down on the tribals, right? So you're just looking up the whole time. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I couldn't believe that, man. I was. Had your little tracker thing on my phone. Yeah. And, um, Oh, Logged on when I wake up that morning. Um, and you hadn't started yet cause there's like a three hour delay from Perth. Yep. Um, So, like not long after I got out and he started the race and I was up checking it all day and I reckon I went to bed, man. Jake he's still going and he's had like 10 minutes off. The whole day. Yeah. I was like, heck when you start thinking about you all going through my whole day. And I've checked it multiple times. That was what blew me away the most out of life. Not seeing the numbers, but just. Reflecting on my day and what I did was so lazy, but I'm tired and go to bed and. It's still pending. Doing an iron man. Oh, that was crazy. Yeah, I spoke to. Here I go diminishing it, but I spoke to somebody. I actually think ultra races, ultra running, ultra marathons. Or harder. Um, could you get that like, Yeah. Uh, released a podcast talk like yesterday, or just made a podcast about the whole things I'm going to bring in a bore, everyone here, but the swim, the weather was so brutal. And we just happened to be in a really choppy day. And like, by the time you get out of the water, you just so relieved to be out the water on the bike. And then yeah. Well, why don't you finish the bike? Cause it's six and a half hours. It just kind of relieved. So you get those little like relief points. Yeah. But, yeah, it's crazy. Even like your running speed was fast. I came out strong. I was actually, when I came out in. It looked like I was going to do like a 3 45 marathon and then I just crashed in the last two, 10 K labs. Like a Ru. A jury. Yeah. It was still the average time. It was pretty good for you. I thought, which is, I think. After everything else. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. So I think it started at like five minutes splits and then it got to like seven minutes of splits. Fun. Yeah. Yeah. I was following another guy he's from, it is over in port Lincoln now, but I knew her from footy. Yeah. And that was his first one as well. I did the half one in Cannes last year. Have you spoken to him? I haven't spoken to him yet, but I was tracking him as well. And he, he just smashed a swim so fast. I couldn't believe it. Half of the full indeed the full one. Yeah, but he did. The swimming like an hour and a minute or something. Yeah. Okay. I'd be interested to hear what his thoughts about the conditions were because. For me, the swimmers. Fucking hectic. It was so hectic. Um, I think I swapped a drunk so much water. But then he's trying to like, I'd follow on Strava. And his training was like ocean. Swims in port Lincoln. Now that's now the basic. Yeah. Um, Yeah, Trey was full on. But the problem with training is, like I said before, like managing training while being stressed out at work and having a. You know, having it's just, it was just hard balancing everything. I think it'd be a lot easier if you're yeah. Maybe I had an easy job when you worked. Or if you don't have a family yeah. It must be nice. What did he, um, Had you found the balance of like giving. Getting that family toll. I mean, on top of a busy business. Um, that training to. Really shit actually. Um, I think like the early stage. We're good. But the last, like, let's say. Six to eight weeks of training. I was really stressed at work. I had some things going on and I wasn't sleeping properly, so it wasn't recovering properly. So then I wasn't getting up in the morning. Cause at the start of it, I was waking up before. Everybody else and then running. And then I would still get the family time at night because the kids go to bed. And then by the end of it all was just like so exhausted. I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. So I'd go do a full day's work and then I'd try when I get home. And then yeah, it. It ended up getting really shit. Um, I got, I said this to someone like, I think doing another iron man. I have no problem with the actual day. As weird as that sounds, but the training block. You know? Yeah. Yeah, it's brutal. Training so long for one day. Yeah. I mean, my history of like sports. He's like team sport, right. So yeah. Trying two or three times a week and you go play on the weekend or you play every week. Yeah. But it's like you're training for so long. Some of the trainings. But on this, you know what I mean? Like just swimming for like an hour. You're like, Ugh. At the start it's enjoyable. It's killed. This is, this is what happened after the triple seven. It killed my love for it. I haven't tried since at all. I was going to ask you that. For often for more or not really. I'm sick of it. Yeah. I'm going to commit to having six months off, like I'll still maintain some level of fitness. And then I'll make a decision because Sean wants to do. Oh man. To our posts like New Zealand in 2026. Which is marching. Yeah. I'd take the whole family up there and have a couple of weeks old. But, um, I'm not ready. Pretty wild train when it wouldn't be flat light or something. Uh, apparently the run flat, but the, yeah, the rides would be really hilly. And it'd be freezing. And the swims didn't like. So I think, oh yeah. Yeah, I think it'd be too bad. It's right in the middle of the north island. Okay. Yeah. It's still a planning to do your adventure up. Yeah. Um, So we're going to launch it last year. Um, After we had the break. When I see him born and sell in the other business. Yup. Um, But I guess over time when we were building the business or building the idea for that business, like. My ideas for a change quite a bit. So, where are you at with it? What is the idea? Originally. I was going to be doing, offering some adventure based to was in this, like through our region. Yep. I'm sorry. Hiking and mountain bike riding and some water sports. Um, mixed in with winery visits or lunch or whatever. Um, fun little day things, but. As it kind of got built out. I'd really didn't want to be. Doing that anymore. You're locking yourself. A lot to me. A guy kind of thing. I just, that wasn't me. Um, Yeah, I'm very conscious about that now. Like what am I committing? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What am I getting myself into? Yeah. Yeah. So we kind of shifted a little bit. I want to develop an app now that's digital based and we're sort of on the way to doing that. Um, where I want to connect other local businesses together to create fun, little itineraries for people that might want to be doing something different in local regions. That aren't. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of standard visit a winery and yep. So you have an app. And people put their. I guess programs or whatever, or, so what I'll do is I'll have, I might do some themed itineraries, um, based on different things to suit different demographics. Yep. That, uh, Um, fun, have a bit of nature connection, a bit of adventure. Um, but also a bit of local touching other local businesses and cuisines or cafes or whatever. Um, I've got a few different ways. I'm looking at doing that. Whether it's just people pay all inclusive and everything's free for them. So they'll go somewhere and pick up a coffee and then go do a hike or whatever. Um, and then do something else. Yep. Yeah. Or weather. Um, I get businesses to advertise. Um, and be paid to be part of the itinerary. Um, and. So what's the revenue stream like. Yeah, it could be one of two ways. So it could be either. Um, ID deals in businesses, um, to get a house out, right. Are there items or services that. They provide, I packaged them up and sell them to the customer. Yeah. Um, at a sort of a margin. Yep. Um, or it's cheaper for the customer. Um, And they're just paying for not on a teary and then businesses can pay me to be part of that itinerary seminar. Subscription-based thing. Yup. So it might be it. all the programs. Yeah. Yeah. But there are some white collar apps already suited for this sort of thing. Yeah. Um, internationally, there's a few new year. Yeah. That I've touched by Sweden. We can rebrand to my business and I can build them this luck. Little it's kind of like a platform that I can create an itinerary for people in cleaning. Interactive maps and. Yeah, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. But it's all branded as me. So far. Are you alone? I sort of got the core of it all there. And this sounds like this could be the thing. Just you do while you're on the counter. Yeah. And that's the thing, because I think it's can be so universal, like. If we're traveling around. You know, I can open up new regions everywhere we go. It's been a bit of time. If it's a tourist region and it's a regional spot where I really want to keep it to regional spots. That are heavy tourists. Um, visitors. Yeah. Then. Um, I think as we're traveling, we can just create your news as we go. Could you thought about the marketing for this or anything, or just building the product at this stage? Just building products. I mean, um, Part of the truism. It's a bit of a tourism board in. They say that a pretty helpful. Yeah. They've got great avenues where you can advertise and. Um, some of the booking platforms as well. Yep. Reach. So one of the booking. Platforms could Rezdy that? That reaches like. You put a, you put a tour or something on there. Goes out to that 200 different sites. Um, so you get good reach. Yeah, by using those platforms, even though they cost money. Yeah. So, yeah, there's lots of different ways to get out of there. Um, also just like your local tourists. Um, visitor centers in that they're pretty good. Um, Yeah. I mean, that's on the way. Um, I would just back to him a trade, did a little carpentry business at the moment. Um, just to get the funds to actually launches out. So, yeah. Just need a bit more money in. That'd be a thing. Um, any interesting. Ah, trouble stories before we wrap up. What do you want to hear about. Near death experiences. I don't know how much I can say. Yeah, no, no, it's not. It's. It's very explicit. Um, I don't know, I'm not keeping them off air. Yeah. What do you need to death? Where were you going with that? Not need, I don't have any really near death experiences, but you know, sometimes where you. In a situation where you think might go a different way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leave it at that. Yeah. Talk about before we wrap up. Um, NASA, you don't really have any plans. You for yourself, heard? And another adventure. Now the challenge. Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I'm two weeks off the iron man, right? So. Yeah. I'm still taught. I'm still haven't. I'm still recovering. Um, As far as adventures. You know, not really. I've got a lot of travel booked in for 2025. Um, You know, We're going to snowy together. That'll be good. Um, I was thinking we should do a. Uh, Mo if we can. Organize it with the gills should do like a multi day. There's a hike that you do in summer. That's like Mount Hotham to Mount falls and it's like, you can do it in days. 40 Ks. Yeah. But in winters. We're wild cause. It's all full of snow and a slot. Oh, I'll just snowshoe it or you make a good boy. I don't really have any adventures at the calendar. Let's do it. Oh, you're talking about doing that after or during or something during the trip, or how long does that. Oh, we could probably do it in a night, like a day and a night. And then, or even. And I would just do something. We have to go. Each fire and the snow camping. Yeah. Let's do it the way back. We can come back on here and talk about it. Death experiences. Cool. Avalanche. Um, One thing I ask everybody before we wrap up is what does success mean to you? I don't know. I think it's, um, I don't know if it's really much as a sense of achievement, but just a fulfilled life, man. Like. You know, doing like chasing the things that I actually wanted. Go for, instead of just saying, go. Um, Trying things just to see what, how they are. You know, Would you. Can you narrow that down to not being afraid to do what you want to do? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Just having the courage to go for it. Um, There's a lot of procrastination. Do you think gives you the courage to go for it because you you're someone who does and you're always doing crazy shit. Do you think it comes. I think it comes. Yeah, it really does come from fear of. Looking back at something in and not have done it. Yeah. I think we've both got that. And it's like, you look at some people who just do that. I think. Good to go. Yeah. Where's your beer love death. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's yeah, that's what's driving me. And then I haven't actually it's, especially since the birth of ACU is like, That fear of not going for something that you really want to do. Um, because I feel like we both got trades behind us. Right. Things go to shit. Like the worst case scenario is. We go back on the tools and our trade. Like that's not the end of the world. Yeah. And that's something that I need to. Think about more, because like, yeah, the realistic, realistically, there's a huge trade shortage for what I do. So what, what is the absolute worst case scenario? You know, I've got to go get a high paid job in the mines. Oh shit. Yeah, that's a good point. I get it, man, because like, you know what can really, yeah. Things can go wrong and you can get setbacks and you can have failures, but. You know, we're not that old. Yeah, it's not going to ruin us. yeah. I think that's also why. I started the podcast. I mean, there was such a fear of like, everybody's going to think I'm a wine guy, but it's just something, I don't know. It's something I've just been so curious about doing, and I really enjoy having conversations like this. I want to try to get more and more interesting people. Not saying that this is not the pinnacle. I don't know where I'm going to go from here, but I just, yeah, I love having good. I already get the opportunity. Like as much as we catch up and stuff like that, like, you don't really get the opportunity to have actually conversations about. Different dynamic. We catch up it's families. Yeah. Kids around. Isn't it. Yeah. We don't really know what's going on in their lives a lot. No. Yeah. It's good to have a chat man. Go. Appreciate you coming on. Do it again. For the earth.