#6 Psychology - Greg Fell

Guest: Greg Fell, a Clinical Psychologist with over 15 years of clinical practice experience. He provides therapeutic psychology services for adults and older adolescents and has experience working with diverse and vulnerable clients.

Greg consults on a wide range of concerns, including anxiety, depression, stress, anger management, grief and loss, trauma and PTSD, addictions, and phobias, amongst other psychological complaints. He assists clients in line with their individual circumstances to develop long-term strategies with the aim of working towards and maintaining mental health and well-being. Depending on each client’s needs, these can include stress management, practical problem solving, assertiveness and confidence training, collaborative communication, and conflict resolution.

Greg holds a Masters in Clinical Psychology and uses a range of psychological therapies, including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), Schema Therapy, and Motivational Interviewing.

Host: Luke Biermann, Managing Director of Mechanical Seal Engineering Pty Ltd, Councillor of Pump Industry Australia, Forum Chair of Entrepreneurs Organisation Adelaide, and Founder of Hard Stuff Podcast

In this thought-provoking episode of Hard Stuff, Luke Biermann sits down with Greg Fell, a clinical psychologist, to dive deep into the complexities of mental health, trauma, and personal growth. Greg shares his journey into psychology, shaped by his own challenges, and provides profound insights into the human experience. The conversation unpacks how trauma shapes our beliefs, drives, and actions, exploring the link between unresolved pain and the pursuit of success. Luke and Greg also discuss topics like internalised shame, the stigma surrounding mental health, the role of anger, and strategies for overcoming anxiety and panic attacks. They reflect on the importance of self-awareness, emotional regulation, and overcoming the stigma of seeking help. With honesty and vulnerability, Luke shares his personal experiences with stress, panic attacks, and the transformative impact of therapy and mindfulness. This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the psychology of success, the journey to mental wellness, and how to navigate life's challenges.

ABOUT CURIOUS AF PODCAST

Curious AF is the evolution of what started as The Hard Stuff Podcast. Initially focused on guests who’d done hard things—ultra marathons, building businesses, overcoming personal challenges—it’s now becoming a broader platform to explore anything and everything I’m genuinely curious about.
The new direction is more personal and wide-ranging. I want it to feel like a space where I can follow my curiosity and have real conversations with people who inspire, challenge, or fascinate me.

For further information, contact:
Podcast Host - Luke Biermann
General Inquiries: hello@curiousaf.com.au
Instagram: @curiousaf.podcast

Transcript

0:03

Hello ladies and gentlemen and welcome to episode six of the Hardstyle podcast. Today my guest is Greg Fell. Greg is a clinical psychologist and we talked all things psychology and it was a great conversation. Um, the conversation just got better and better as we went. The other thing I want to touch base on is I've got some bloody awesome guests coming on. I have got a guy who ran seven marathons in seven continents in seven days. Get your head around that. Uh, really looking forward to that one. So you don't want to miss out. Also, I've got a bunch of really successful entrepreneurs, philanthropists, and just other really amazing people. So you'd be doing yourself a disservice by not hitting the subscribe button. Um, the other thing I wanted to just quickly touch base on is I made an off the cuff comment in the start of the video because, um, it was something like, uh, the meaning of life for me is about love, connection, and inner peace. Now that's just about where my head's at and I just thought I'd explain that a bit because it sounds a bit funky just coming, uh, straight off the bat. I am someone who's always really struggled with meaning and I think that's led to the majority of issues in my life, right? But it's I think a lack of meaning pushes someone towards hedonism. Um, well for me it did anyway, right? And, and what that looked like is, uh, hedonism and materialism. What that looked like is, is an obsession with, um, basically just just materialism. Drinking too much to kind of numb the lack of meaning. Drinking too much, uh, you know, earlier 20s, substance abuse, um, a bunch of stuff, you know. Basically the, the, the search for instant pleasure. I think materialism is, is kind of the same thing. And now I've quit drinking. So the last six months I've been 100 percent um, sober. And it's forced me to deal with a lot of the issues that I was solving with drinking, right? So one of my favorite sayings is, and I'm going to butcher this because I'm on the spot. Um, alcoholism is the solution, not the problem, right? So you drink it too much because there's another issue in your life. And for me, that was meaninglessness. Nihilism, I guess you could say. And, I, I've been trying to figure out what to fill that, that, that gap with. Um, and, it is, I mean, what I've figured out so far, and, and what keeps, what, what gives me meaning is love, right? The love of my family, um, which, taking an interest in those who I love as life. and having a serious connection to their well being. Um, connection is having some sense of community, right? That's something I really struggled with when I was younger. I think because I was so anxiety ridden and in my own head about Uh, how much of a, I don't know, I had a lot of self worth issues, right? So I was so in my head that the only way I could connect with people is kind of drinking and partying and stuff like that, which comes with its own litany of issues. Um, And then inner peace is, it's just kind of, again, the self worth issues. Uh, are you just constantly telling yourself that you are not worthy? And, um, are you at war with people in your head? Are you, are you focusing deeply on issues that may arise that you can't actually change? Um, which is a lot of the stuff that I work through. in therapy with my psychologist. Um, anyway, I just thought I'd explain that a bit deeper because it just sounds a bit ridiculous straight off the cuff and it sounds a bit like hippie dippy sitting in a circle with dreadlocks. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the episode. Thanks everyone.

Track 1: 4:07

Greg Feld. I going, I am well, thanks. That's good. Um, Let's jump straight in. I've. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately. I guess about kind of figuring out the meaning of life for myself. I think a lot of men. Maybe this is just in the circles that I hang out with, fall into traps about. Um, Trying to fill their life with things to be happy. Right. I had an old friend that had a saying he who dies with the most toys wins. Whereas I'm trying to figure out what, what kind of the meaning of my life is if that question even makes sense. And I think what I've come out with so far is love connection. And internal peace. It used to be paced, but now it's internal peace because I don't think peace is possible. And I think. The biggest part of internal pieces is mental health and that's something, um, you've helped me immensely with. I think we've had a. My psychologist. We've had a, I got it. It's got to be seven or eight year. That's been our relationship. Um, and, and I went through about, uh, I think about five psychologists before United. And I just couldn't fit. And I think a lot of people go through one or two. And kind of just give up and say, psychology is not for me. Anyway. Um, so yeah, you're a psychologist. And today we're going to kind of talk about some mental health things, and I thought, first of all, we'll dive into kind of your history and why you got into psychology in the first place. Sure. Um, We're coming out of high school. Um, I wanted to figure myself out. I wanted to. Um, Learn more about who I was and why I was that way. Um, And a big part of that was being gay. And I'm literally learning this about you now. Uh, Le uh, growing up in a country town. And so it wasn't a whole lot of acceptance and there was a lot of internalized homophobia and thinking that. Um, You know, wanting to know that why was that way or wanting to know. Um, you ended up was that it was okay. That there was a reason for someone to. To be like that. Um, and so I thought I'd go into research and do all this wonderful stuff then. I'm about halfway through my degree. I kind of realized that none of that mattered. Came to accept a lot more about myself. And so he started heading down the. Uh, the counseling. Kind of root. Rather than research. So this was all straight out of high school. Yeah. Because it seems like that journey usually happens. What happened for me potentially my early thirties, it happens a lot to men in their late twenties, early thirties. So that's a very early time to be kind of. Uh, finding yourself, I guess. I think you kind of. You know, pushed into that situation sometimes. Yeah. And interesting. Can I ask a bit more about that? So internalized homophobia. What do you, what do you mean by that? Um, You know, Um, I I've spoken a lot about my deep internal shame about kind of my behavior and what my own personal battles and. It sounds like it. What do you set it at? Sounds familiar. You. You know, because I have so much. Yeah, total shy. We're about to kind of stop. So some of the things that I did when I was younger, so yeah. I think, yeah, I think for many, uh, You know, gay people or, you know, more diversely queer people. That growing up in a society where there. Experience is not represented. Often. Kind of told that. No, they told her that. You know, unnatural, asserting forth about that. And so there's this message I get from all sides that. That that tells them that they are less than. And often people internalize that and feel very shameful, um, uh, about. The sexuality. That's that's what internalized homophobia is. And it does a number on you. Yeah. If you let it keep on going. And I think I was just very lucky. Um, once I got to university that I kinda met the right people. And came to. Have a much better. A more positive understanding of that. That parlor myself. Yeah. All right. So we're going to dive into one of the, one of the big questions straight away. Um, What is trauma? Um, It's a big question. Yeah. Um, So trauma is our brain's way of trying to protect us from the dangers that we might come across. It. So. Do you mind if I Yeah. Yeah. So that's very interesting because I think naturally when you hear the word trauma, you think. That's what? Well, maybe this is just me, but trauma is a bad thing. That's happened to you. Whereas it sounds like you've kind of twisted that and it's short. It's the way you react to a bad thing. That's happened to you. Yeah. So, yeah, so we're going to, yeah, so. If you're looking at a. Um, I guess a lay person's understanding of trouble. Yes. It's, it's the bad things that happen. But from a psychological perspective, it is to buy the, we respond to those bad things happen. So when. Um, So just on that being said, I mean, I've always. Thought. I mean, when I speak, I get very shameful around all the things that have happened to me on bad enough to be class classified as trauma. But realistically, it's not. How bad the thing is that's happened. It's has it affected? Yeah. So the way that we responded it's, it's the meaning that it holds for us. And so yeah. Different people respond differently to the same. Kind of experience. So it might be. So something that happened might be trauma for one person, but potentially won't be trauma for another. Correct. Okay. Yeah. So when we were growing up, For most of us will have an experience that's relatively safe that we know that our. You know, it needs to go to be met. That we're going to get, you know, the love and care. We need. And so we, we, from those experiences be developed a pitch of the world in our head and that pitcher. Is that the world is, is generally safe. Um, and we continue on under that assumption until we. Have any experience that, that. Demonstrates that to be untrue. Uh, and that can be. Harry, anything from something like a car accident to a assault or anything along those lines? And suddenly we've got this. This picture changes. I'm going to keep, just because I want clarity around this. So you've just pointed out two situations that are one. Bang instant in time. Can trauma be like an elongated experience as well. Let's say just a little. Let's say something like. Like. What about like, you know, not subconsciously. Like little niggles that basically somebody telling you not you're not good enough. I mean, if that happens over a period of time and is that still classified as trauma? Is that a different thing? Probably a different thing. Okay. Okay. So. But trauma can be repeated. Uh, and so. All right. You're subjected to. You know, Living up Greg, up in abuse, his family or something like that. With those trauma experiences might happen repeatedly. And often that will lead to a more complex presentation of. Of chocolate. So, yes. So one-off incidents like a car accident. Often the presentation of that trauma might be quite different compared to one. Uh, his repeated. Yeah. And so that, that negative experience will kind of change that picture and ahead. And so we can no longer. Too. This view of the world being a safe or other people being trustworthy. And so our whole. Um, Uh, brain changes to try to be able to, um, now protect ourselves, being in a world where we can't expect to be safe. And how does the brain change? How does that show up? Um, so like your classic trauma symptoms are. Re-experiencing. Uh, and so. Um, the brain would say, well, we've been through this, uh, this traumatic experience and we need to learn from that. Um, and so. Um, we want to be able to examine. That whole experience to find whatever. Um, indeed. Might've been. To be able to predict that that trauma was about to happen. Sorry. I'll probably, and we'll constantly bring it up through. Very intrusive memories or trains and nightmares or flashbacks. Uh, because, uh, uh, Brian wants us to pay attention to it so that we can learn from it. But because that memory is often very, very painful, very, very triggering. Um, How response to that is to try and suppress it or escape it or. Um, from that. And so we ended up in this battle. Between, uh, Brian bringing up these memories. Uh, I was trying to push it down. Interesting. So. I guess my next question. And this is obviously very self-serving is how does the unresolved drama drive shaped somebody's drive to succeed? Um, And I'm happy to speak on that first. Yeah. Tell me about your experience. Well, look, I, I, I don't know where. This is an interesting one, right? Because I think I have. And this is getting better now, but I have a deep feeling of not being good enough and not being worthy. Now there's a few experiences that I'm probably not, I'm fairly open on this podcast, but I'm probably not comfortable bringing. But, um, I, through, through some events that I've happened to be previously, I have a, uh, have a deep. D drive. To prove to the world. That I am good enough. And that I'm worthy. No that's served me well, as far as kind of material success. Uh, but I think it's, uh, we, well, as far as happiness, um, I think a lot of my. Uh, My motivation has come from, come from the stick and not the carrot. If that makes sense. Um, So I'm just, I'm just trying to deal with that now. And I think. A lot of it, like I've had a deep fear that if you resolve. This feeling. Uh, look, it is going to sound hard, but if you resolve the self hatred and actually start loving yourself, And being happy. You will lose the motivation that got you. The level of material success. You currently have. Um, I guess from a psychology point of view. How does that sit with it? Um, I don't believe that's actually true. Why. So from food, one of the things that. One of the other ways that trauma Marianna. Trying to fix them. Is the beliefs that they develop about themselves. Um, And often those beliefs might be. I mean, I'm quite negative. I'm not good enough, or I'm able to protect myself or feeling. Uh, defective, corrupted. Lots of those kinds of experiences. And the yes, sometimes in the. Her drive to try and escape from those kinds of beliefs that we might put a lot of expectations on ourselves. And that. And that can be the driver to succeed. So expectations on, on yourself. Yeah. Does that must be. You know, I must be good enough. I must never make mistakes. I must present a face to the world that they're going to want to see. Okay. So. Well, it sounds like. What a face on the world. Could that be described as not be your authentic self? Sure. I mean. Most people, aren't their authentic self. 100% of the time. Yeah. I think most people aren't their authentic self, 99% of the time. Yeah. Um, But I think that. Aside from that. To be put on these expectations of. Uh, on ourselves and they may be a driver to succeed. But that's a double-edged sword in all the time, because. Failure is a part of life. And that while those expectations might be a driver to succeed, when we fail. They become a liability. Because that leads us then to be beating ourselves up about that failure rather than. Trying to learn from it. So let's come back to, okay. Let's come back to like, why. Having failure affects you. Drastically. Uh, sounds like a good motivator to succeed. So, so why isn't it. Um, Oh, well, okay. Let's say it is, but, so where does the motivation come from? If not from that. Deep fear of failure. I think across. For, for, I guess, a certain percentage of people. That fear of failure might be here. Uh, a driver, but it doesn't factor faction that way for a lot of people. For a lot of people, we will be debilitating. Um, in what way? Um, You hide. What's the point in trying, I'm never going to get where I want to go. Um, And, and each valley becomes an example. Of that way of thinking. And I think even when it does become a. Uh, driver to succeed. It gets in the way of being able to be. Happy with that success. Because. It doesn't actually get at the root of those, those negative beliefs about yourself. And so even with those that success, those negative beliefs, often a. Still there. Um, Well, it says more like you're saying rather than it not being a motivation, it just from hearing what you said, it sounds more like. Well, yes, it is a motivator, but it's motivating you towards something. That's not going to make you happy. And that's currently kind of the journey that I'm going through. Right now, I think a lot of entrepreneurs go through this. Um, I think a lot of entrepreneurs, a defective PayPal, but basically you've got, you know, There's a deep need for, Hey, when I get to this level of business. I will. Uh, everything will be okay. And I'll be happy. And then you get there and then you just move the goalpost down the road. And then you just end up living in this stress cycle because you're constantly moving the goalpost. Cause you think you'll be happy where I am. Whereas, whereas I think happiness. Is a very different thing. Um, Like one of my goals was always like, I need to be the guy that builds this huge global company rara. And, and, um, It's taken me kind of a year to get to the point where I realize. I think a lot of that ego and, and driven by. What I want the world to see me as where realistically I can kind of transform. The business. Into, I guess, a lifestyle driver. I think that we'll be more happy and more and closer to kind of maybe more authentic life, if that makes sense. I'm not, not sure. I'm still figuring it all out. That's the journey I'm currently on. You're thinking about what purpose does the business. Not as a business, but in your life. Yeah. Uh, and that if it's taking over. Um, your life for the. If you'd like, yeah. Does your life suit the business? There's a business suit. I guess that's the fundamental question. And then I'm also tackling like, Uh, life serves the business. I've lived kind of the last eight years in this. Really intense. Stress cycle. And not feeling safe because I've been so stressed out about needing the business to succeed. Right. And I've sacrificed so much as far as. A tie with my family. Mental health. And stuff like that, but then also. You know, it's easy for me to say now when I'm actually living off the fruits of that previous labor. If that makes sense. So, so I'm not sure whether I regret it or not. Um, It's it's. Hard to kind of work that in your head. Because you're going to go. You need to go on the path for you. You take. Yeah. And these other imaginary potential paths we could have taken might've led to would necessarily have led to different things. But. I think that's a distraction. Whereas I think the. What path. Am I going to take me now? And it is going to lead me to. The, the kind of life that I'm looking for. Yeah. Do you see examples of where trauma becomes a source, a source of strength? Or is it always something to overcome? It is positives and negatives that come at in trauma. Alright that you. Uh, the reason, a lot of potential for growth and learning about yourself. And trying to like, it's a, it's a call to action of all the time to go. Alright. What direction is. To take him. Yeah, there is a lot of strength in it. But no trauma is an injury. And it causes it's going to cause you. Um, no people develop scars. It limits your function. Um, just like a physical injury. Can you share some insights on, on how my, how mindset impacts longterm mental health. Ooh. I know, I guess, on, on maybe how the mindset of. Constantly needing to succeed. Effects. Long-term into health. So. If you, if you're breaking it down, that mindset has different levels, I guess. Like there's those deeper levels of core beliefs about how you see yourself, how you see the world. I am I a good person? Am I a worthwhile person by. Capable person. Um, And those kinds of beliefs feed into. Um, The day to day. Um, once we have in a head and responses that we have and how we call about. Dealing with things. Sorry, what was a good person, capable person? What was the last one? Worthwhile. Worthwhile. And that's not an exhaustive list. Yeah. I mean, that was where my question was going to go. Because I've met some people who. Really don't give a shit. If they're a good person. So I wonder whether they're trying to meet some other need within themselves. And what that could be. And let's say, let's say a narcissist for example, mean. What, what, what what's going on internally there. Um, That's a big old question. Um, what's what are their drivers? So. Well, Narcissus and. This is how to talk about, because I. I see narcissism or narcissistic with Natalie disorder. As. Like a mental health condition as much as any other. And I don't want to be. Derogatory or. And now there are certain mental health conditions that caught a lot of flack. Which is perhaps. Um, and unfair. Well, narcissism is one of them. A lot of fact, because, because although they had three cause of the damage that. Yeah. Absolutely. That is the case, but that damage. Occurs because of the psychological pain that that person is in. S say. You think nice. Some are narcissists are in psychological pain. Okay. Yeah. Um, so that when I go through the world without a worry in the world, Some people would present that image. But that's not actually true of their internal experience. Well, yeah. Uh, and so, so the common. Um, Perception of Narcissus is that they are full of themselves. Yes. Oh, I, I mean, I can tell you that my perception it's. That all they care about is their own happiness and wellbeing. And they don't care who they have to. Uh, what damage they do to make sure that that is. Uh, that, that, that, that, that you sit on top of the mountain. Does that make sense? Um, So. What that sounds like to me is a lack of empathy. Uh, like, like a severe like deficit of empathy. Well, isn't that the, really, the definition not being able to, because empathy is feeling other people's emotions, is it not? And isn't that the definition of. psychopathy. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I mean. That's that kind of president. That's what I'll be more thinking about of. Um, them wanting to end up on top of the heap. I think that I would tune that as a psychopathy. Yeah. Whereas narcissism often comes from a really deep sense of. Feeling inadequate. And really, yeah. Yeah. And innate. I'm feeling so shameful about that, that no one can ever see it. And so it's a lot of overcompensation. Okay. So it's not like, I guess some. I guess I haven't thought about it too much, but I guess I thought it was just like, They see themselves as the best. And. They, you know, And that's it. They just see themselves as God's gift to the world or whatever terminology you want to use there. But you're saying. They actually see themselves. As the opposite to God's gift. So they are trying to show everybody that they are to make themselves feel better. Yeah. Yeah. Two. Yeah, two. Because when I get a feel good about themselves too. Um, two. Um, yeah, that they need that. Uh, validation from other people. Well, but I guess it's also like just a different methodology methodology of trying to make themselves better. I'd because I often feel like I'm not good enough or not worthy, but then I don't go up to people and go. I'm the best. I'm the, you know, That's not how I deal with it because I, I guess I see that then that just comes off as. I mean, it's just that tactic is not going to make other people see you as better. So, I guess. There's just a. I think that there's just a lack of understanding about, uh, how other people are going to see that kind of behavior. And they actually think that that kind of behavior. Is going to. But our people are going to fall for it. It's. Um, I think that's the interesting thing about psychology is that. Um, You can have, you know, 10 different people starting from. You know, similar place. Themselves similar experiences. And I ended up heading in 10 different directions. They've got different strategies on how though they're going to fix the inadequacy in their own mind. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, so, so what is. Therapy then coming off that right. Is it. Is. I mean. W what is the definition of therapy? I mean, is it just, I. Okay. What's the word I'm looking for? Is it just a mains to. Um, have some more, uh, self-reflection. W what is therapy? That'd be can, it can be a whole number of things. As well. Um, And. I guess fundamentally it's. Are you trying to help people too? Uh, address whatever their psychological, psychological injury might be. Yeah. But the approach that you take. Uh, which depends both. Psychologist and on. On the participant. Um, people. Um, Right. It would be more interested in very. Um, my strategies focus kind of things and say, why don't you use. No one, you know, you give me six sessions. I just want to learn what to do. And then I want to go on my way. Um, whereas. The digging into those deep understandings of reflections of no. Why am I. Well, how am I the way that I am and why? Uh, you know what, we're not in my life. They've been there. They ended up there. Yeah, pulling that apart. Um, But, you know what we've internalized with that. And try to put it back together in a way that. Makes no sense. Hey, Sam. Harris's. The author. Um, No. I'm thinking of Russ Harris. Okay. He's a, he's a lot of things, but anyway, he wrote a book. Called free will. Right. And his argument is. That we think we w. You know, we, we have think we have three. Free will. But if you don't really dive down until we don't make any of the choices and, you know, Basically his argument is we don't have free will. The conclusion of the book is. That. A destructive person is like a, um, Let's say it should be treated more as like a natural disaster, like a hurricane or something like that. Right. So. We don't get angry. At tornadoes for destroying houses. Okay, this is the situation. Now we needed to deal with it. So it doesn't affect the people around him. And it's more like we should have more compassion. For people like narcissists, who, or criminals and stuff like that. Now we need to. Um, we need to protect. Those around them from the damage they can cause, but there's no point of being angry at them. Now it sounds like what you're describing is psychology has led you to a similar conclusion about people. Yeah. I mean, I definitely do think that people deserve. Uh, compassion. Um, even when. Um, you know, they might be. Uh, negative influence and damaging. Um, So the people around them. And I'm not sure I'd go to the extent of saying we have zero free will. Um, but our, you. A lot of. Um, a lot of the way that we are comes kind of pre-programmed. Um, Um, and some of that is just now. and some of that easing our upbringing. Uh, but by the time we become young adults, Um, Well, if we're not paying attention to. What we're thinking, what we're doing and why that is. And a lot of things will feel very automatic. Feel like we, um, Um, we don't have that free will. And it takes a lot of self-reflection and the wisdom that we derived from that to be able to. Develop that ability to, um, have a more. Conscious. Y of living. Yeah. In in intentional. Yeah. Yeah. I like that intentional. As a psychologist. And you find it challenging or enlightening to analyze your own behavior. Ah, Um, It's really hard. To do psychology. On yourself. Um, and like, you know, the, the, the basics of it, you can, uh, apply to yourself. And I think that there's a lot of, you know, strategies. Um, that I would to clients. And I will implement in my own life as well, because they just useful. What, why is it hard to do it yourself? Do you trick yourself? I think it's more, the bits that's hard is the deeper reflection. Is that you need that? You need something to mirror off of. Really. To get to our. That's the thing. Yeah. I've I I've found that obviously. I mean, that's a lot of what I get out about my sessions with you. I find a similar. Um, A similar benefit out of journaling. I feel like I usually my, my head, I just go around in circles, round in circles, round in circles. And then when I actually journal and get it down on the paper. If I find it a way to get it out of your head and actually solve. The issue because yeah, you. I, I think you probably got about three sentences that just go around your head and you can't really go too much deeper than that. Without actually putting it down on paper. Did that. Uh, it encourages you to explore, like you get those three senses in, and once you get to the end of that third sentence, like there's more questions there. Like, what does that mean? And where does that leave me? And. And you just start again. Yeah. Right. So what, what are the techniques that you're talking about that you would implement in your own life? Ah, I think it's just the. The day to day things. Oh for just looking after yourself. Um, making sure that. You. How do you time to have downtime and, uh, and not put too much pressure on yourself and. Do the. You know, the control breathing and the relaxation and meditation and all those kinds of things. Um, and then. When I catch myself. Um, in some negative self-talk. Um, being able to. And to find my way out of that. Cause. I'm a psychologist doesn't mean I'm immune. Yeah, from that. Yeah. Um, even like coming along, you. You know, today that, you know, I think the only reason I hesitated when you asked was what if I do. I don't do a good job. What if I stuff it up and, and that's like that automatic reaction and have to take that time to go. Acting. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the interesting, I, I feel like. So many people. Don't do what they want out of life because of that one little psychology hack. So, I guess. You know, w do you have any tricks or techniques specifically for that one? It's just practice. Just practice. Yeah. Because I find like I'm really good at overriding that, and I think that's been kind of why I've been able to achieve. Kind of some of the things I, I have. I'm very good at just acting, even though. Internally, I'm telling myself that this is going to be crap. This is not going to be good enough. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I mean, that's there the. That's the idea of the valued action. Of it, even though. I'm not feeling good about this thing. That's in front of me. Uh, it is too important to me for these reasons. Therefore, I'm going to push through in. And do it. Yeah, so. There's a, there's a few kind of entrepreneurs. I follow. And then why did that square? It's. I acquired the entrepreneur slash speakers. I followed. And their big thing is. Um, Belief comes after action. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of people. They don't do any action because I believe that I can do it. Whereas realistically, you probably, you're not going to believe you can achieve it. You've got to act first. And then you. So. How our brain learns so much from experience. It's the doing of the thing that, that we used to be able to learn. And so, yes, it's, it's through success. And we believe, oh, I can, I can do this. So it's making that first jump because realistically, if you don't ever make that jump into action into something that you don't believe you can do, then you're going to be constantly stuck in that sock. When you never actually going to take action. Can I ask you about something else? That's a bit off script, but. What's that issue that people have, and I've always found this fascinating where they can't. Leave the house. Okay. Um, Because I only reason I ask you is it, so it's, I've quit drinking now and everything like that. But I sometimes after it had a big night, when I was younger, got extremely anxious the next day. And. I feel like I felt a lot. Like I always never understood it. And then at sometimes when I was really anxious, I felt a light version of that. Like, I didn't want to speak to people and that's completely opposite to who I am, but. I could feel that I'm like, that's interesting. Where did that come from? Yeah. So, uh, agoraphobia is that what's called. Yup. Is is yeah. I'm not wanting to leave the house, but it's usually. Um, a component like the most common condition where that is the case is. Uh, panic attacks. Uh, so. Um, so a panic attack is a real extreme version of intense anxiety. Uh, and your, your body goes in to. Uh, patent you mean to, um, emergency mode? Uh, and because of that, it's all these physiological symptoms that you'll be aware of. That you've probably never experienced before and they can feel very. Scary. Yeah. So. I have spoken on the podcast. How. I've had panic attacks in the early days of the business. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and sometimes those panic attacks become associated with. Uh, Pickler. You know, actions, places, people, things like that, or Brian's really good at. Because when you go into a panic attack, There's actually a threat there, but your brain's looking for a threat. It wants it to be a problem so that it can, can fix it, or, you know, it's funny because I've after I started having panic attacks. Like, then it felt like something switched in me. Right. And that there was just this thing that happened. And I'd go into certain situations where logically, I was like, You know, you've, this is not something to be afraid of. Yet my body would. It would be like, yes, it is. And I would start having these shaking uncontrollably, whereas like logically, I was like, I know I can do this. So there was such a weird tension between my, what my physical body is doing and what my brain is telling me. Yeah. And so because our brain is looking for. Um, the reasons for that patch would be there, but it's not finding anything. You'll start attaching. That reason too. Other arbitrary things. Hold on. Okay. Can you just say that again? Yeah. Sorry. So that. If we have repeated panic attacks. Yes. Uh, and, uh, Brian is trying to look for a reason for that. Panics is looking, it's trying to find a threat. And if it's not finding a threat or it's not pointing to threat, what is the threat? Well, like how did, how did they originally. And why is that anxiety there in the first place? It could just. You could just be you. Um, Am I going. Am I going to do. If my business gonna fall apart. So there might be, um, a more nebulous thing that the anxiety is about that. What if my business fails and those kinds of things. But when your body's looking for your brain's looking for a threat is looking for like a physical threat. It's okay. It's feeling like it's in danger. And it's not seeing anything that's there. And so upgrading will latch on to something else about that experience that it will then start to associate with. Uh, as, as a threat. So. So say for example, If you. No, you go for a walk every day. And as you. Uh, oh, that walk you pass by these houses. Because these great big dog that comes out and instead of the two. And. Um, and so your, your brain knows that every time. No, we're not ever approached. This house has got to be a dog there. That's going to start when we, and it will start to. Um, trigger those, those same kind of fear responses. Even before you see. Before. Okay. And so, you know, one day you might pass that house and the dog's not there for some reason, but you still gonna have those same. The same fear responses because your brain is now made that connection between that house and a dog. That. So the house becomes a symbol. For the threat of the dog. So you say. So with. Uh, gore glorify vehicle. Yes. So how does it reach that point? Well, well, so it's, but it sounds like. I'm going to try, but you tell me if I'm wrong. It sounds like something in the world is causing you to have these panic attacks and you don't know what it is, but you just know that when you're in your house, it's not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's usually not a straight away thing. It's usually with repeated things that you go to the shops and you have a panic attack there and your brain goes, why can't go there? Cause I had a panic attack. And then it's you, you know, you're walking down the street and you have a panic attack. Your brain goes. Oh, I can't go there because I might have another pet. And then you're walking out to your letterbox and you have a panic attack and your brain goes, oh, I can't go out to the letterbox. So because I'll have another panic attack. So why. So it's obviously not the letterbox, you know? No. So, what is it, why you having plenty of texts? It comes to the panic itself. So I phew. Yeah. That's horrible. So it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Right. Yeah, it's fearing having another panic attack and going through that intensely. Uncomfortable. Sometimes even painful experience. People just getting this horrible cycle. Oh, that must be. So hard. Um, So. Yeah. So, so I guess with mine, Aye. So mine started with a called the migraines, but if I'm being honest, I dunno. If it was migraines, it was a. It was a, somebody described it as a fishbowl effect and that really resonated with me. Right. So I'm so in my own head that somebody talks to me and I actually don't. It just muffles because I'm, you know, And I've found myself in conversations with clients. With no vocabulary, you know, not actually be able to interact with them on a tech. What I do is very technical and we'll be able to interact with them on a technical basis. Right. Um, and this was getting worse and worse. I don't know how much of this I've told you, but I then went and saw a, um, I got, got MRIs. I did sleep studies. I did, um, you know, nose and throat. Nothing came back. You. And then this went on for months and months and. I also saw a doctor at some point and he told me, I think it's stress. And I kind of laughed him off as in, like, I basically took it as if he was calling me weak. And that was my mindset. Um, and then I was interacting with a staff member. I only had a few staff at the time and I, I was. You know, just, I was basically a tradesman that started a business. I had no. Experience with managing staff. And I was talking to him. Uh, and I, I, it was, uh, it was. No negative, but it was like a difficult, tricky situation. And I kind of just. My body. My fight or flight took over and I just walked to the car and I drove home and I called Jess and I said, I don't know what's happening. I can't breathe properly. And I got home. And I caught up in the, in a ball on the couch. Broke out in like a rash and just kind of shook on, on the couch for awhile. Um, Oh, my question was going to be. I guess, and I took that as a response of like, Yeah, because I was extremely stressed out. I was working crazy hours at the time I took that. Uh, as a, Hey no, no, no, your you're working too much. Putting yourself under too much pressure. Um, too much stress. You know, you, you, you, your brain saying, you can keep doing this, but your body is saying no, like. Well, I can't, we can't handle the amount of stress and pressure that. That you're putting us under. Um, but from then, Uh, it just felt like a constant anxiety. And I knew that that was something that could happen to me. And, and I just got into this cycle, right. And then I took medication. And my life. Change. And I was always. Uh, against medication. And there was such a shame attached to when I took that medication. Right. Um, but like I've tried to get off that. Uh, multiple times. But I just feel like something, something broke in me. And whenever I try. I'll I'll, I'll be off for a few months and I'll tape it myself and do it all properly. Like the doctor said, but I'll be having a normal conversation with a client that I've known for five years. And all of a sudden one neck will start going in and I'll start getting the jitters. And I feel like it's the early stages of a panic attack. Um, Uh, I guess, I mean, has something brought. I feel like I describe it as something broken me and I didn't know how to fix it. You know, um, and, and through that, I actually, haven't been able to manage my business. I've got to do difficult. One-on-ones with. Um, Employees. Uh, full company meetings. Do with high intense clients. And I feel like I've built a life that my body can't actually handle. And now I'm in this like cycle of like, can never get off the medication because, you know, Um, I'm not sure if. Broken is the way that I describe it. That's how I describe it. I'd love for you to give me a better way. So. I would like talks to people. Anxiety is a normal part of the human experience. Yeah. Um, it's. It's our brain responding to. I guess potential dangers I'd like to fear is, is our response to concrete, dangerous. As in like, is that threat immediately in front of us? Uh, and anxieties our response to imagine dangers. Um, and maybe look, maybe I'm playing word games here, but where does Nirvana nervousness sit in that? Oh, wait, hold on. Oh, yeah, no, you're right. Well, I guess they're all emotions. And they're just different degrees of that kind of that form of motivation. Everything from excitement. Yes, nervousness to anxiety. The fear. Like emotions are how our brain motivates us to go and do things. And so I guess nervousness is kind of a little bit. Further down the, all up the spectrum from anxiety. Good. Because I feel like a in, in a few recent years with the. Um, Pause. I guess the, the awareness that mental health has taken within society, I feel like nervousness and anxiety, those words have kind of got mashed together. Whether that's helpful or not. I mean, there's certainly a lot of overlap. Yeah. In between the two, it's the way I. Uh, conceptualize it in my own head that that nervousness is isn't as severe as anxiety. Um, but. They serve a similar function. And they caused by similar things. So I interrupted. So you're saying. is. It's a normal part of. Existence. It's part of how it. Hold on. You were telling me that I'm not broken. Yeah. And so. Experiencing an anxiety. Uh, a normal thing that we will have to go through. Sometimes I'm at a time. But I think that when you've been through. Um, anxiety. That is significant enough that like it starts to impact upon your life. Then you just become that much more attuned to it. That when you. See when you start having those kinds of things. Oh shit. Um, I'm having these things already coming on that. Um, You're, you know, you're more worried about it because you've been through those experiences in the past. And that exacerbates it and you get into this cycle. Perfect. But I think that the most interesting thing from the addict. Giving four, is that when the doctor suggested it might be stress that you're responsible as it's. Yeah, that he was calling you awake. And I think that's, uh, I think, uh, conception that people. Uh, often have, is that. Getting stressed, getting anxious, having, um, Right. Uh, I guess a mental health day, seeing that as a weakness. That's a huge. Uh, Really, I agree. Um, but I didn't back then. You know, it's taken me a long time to kind of. Get where I am today. Um, And even to speak about a puppet. Like I was so ashamed, I guess. I was ashamed of the panic attacks. I didn't. I never wanted to call them panic attacks. I was ashamed of. Medication. I never spoke about it publicly. And now I'm speaking about it on a podcast. It's been a journey in. And I think I probably, I mean, I'm extremely open about it and I guess some of the circles that I. Uh, you know, hanging out with. I think it's it's, uh, some of the stuff that comes out of my mouth is such a shock because. Um, Uh, they've never kind of explored it, I guess. And I guess maybe they say it as wait, but I think I'm finally confident enough in myself that I really don't care. Um, But yeah, I think it's a huge problem. Because that's another thing, right? So. I don't know. If it's just men, but I think it's a problem with a lot of men. And I wonder whether it's linked to kind of the suicide rate being so. In Hawaiian men. I think they, they have an experience. And they don't talk about it. They, they, they just push it down and rather than kind of getting help and understanding what's going on. They just. Continuously push it down because I don't want to say it be seen as weak. Um, Until it just gets to a point where it's a huge problem that hasn't actually been resolved in any way, shape or form. Yeah. Well, it could have been addressed quite simply early on. Yeah. Because of that. At shaman avoidance, it grows into something else. So. It's something I didn't say is I also. When I first started being, thinking a therapist, I, I. I wonder how common this is within society. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's just the circles I hang out with because a lot of my friends are. Uh, in trades and stuff like that, but there was like a hesitation or a level of shame and secrecy around even being in therapy. We don't have that now. But, um, I mean, what do you think that is? Is that just a big hangover from. The past. Yeah. You know, previously. There has been a lot of stigma around mental health in that, that sense of being weak. And I think that's probably exaggerated for. For men. Uh, and that. Yeah, it's still hangs around to some extent. Now it's a bit of a. Used to be. Uh, but there's still a long way that we need to. Yeah. Um, And. I think that, you know, when you, uh, you know, when you grow up as a, as a boy. If you're told. You know, don't cry. That's weak. If you get told off for having emotions in general. God, the shame that I had around cry when I was a kid. Yeah. I used to think there was something wrong with me because I cried a bit when I was a kid. Even in private, if something happened on cry at home. And I would just think of an absolute loser for crying by myself in my room, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why I'm smiling. I always do this, but yeah, it's just such a crazy, I think. I'm smiling because it's just such a crazy well, it's, it's sad to think of like a kid. Who's crying because he's upset about something. But then also that he feels like a, a weak loser because he's crying about that thing that's happened. That's probably worth writing about yeah. Let's see. Emotions are wild. Uh, and particularly as a child, like motions are wild. What do you mean. Acted out our, our body functions, our brain functions by giving us this, this. Stimulus that that's. Uses anger users, fear users, shame, guilt. All of these things are designed to get us to go and do something. Uh, and the. Oh, our body works is. And. And when you were a child. They're much more intense. Like now as an adult, we kind of forget that we've had decades to get used to these kinds of things, but when you're a child experiencing this for the first time, It is intense and you don't know what it is. I. He doesn't know what you're doing with it. And so you look to your parents to learn, how am I supposed to deal with these emotions? It depends on. How could your parents, our team with the versions of what you learned to be able to manage that. And I feel like because of the shame around it. A lot of the generation above me, weren't that good at dealing with their emotions and that. Shows in the way of, I dunno, I guess, you know, Alcohol abuse. I mean. My wife's a second generation immigrant. I'm. I have a secondary generation immigrant. I've got a lot of friends that are as well. And like, can I cut the alcohol abuse? In that next generation above us with. We're ramping. And I think that's a lot to deal with not being able to deal with their emotions. I don't know if that's. Yeah. It's it's a fair statement, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're crying as a child. That's part of how we deal with and regulate our emotions. It's an essential part of. Uh, of growing up and when you're told no that's bad, that's shameful. It does damage. What damage. Well, he's had some of the trauma we expect. Spoke about earlier. Not trauma. I mean, it does do internalize that message. You know that sensitive. Aye. You get that message that crying is weak, for example, but you don't have the ability to stop yourself from crying because you're trying to deal with these emotions. Then you internalize as much as well. That means that I'm. I'm wick and that's cut. That's part of the multi, um, Case that you build later in life for thinking you're not good at that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And or you cut yourself off from that avenue of being able to deal with shoot. As it comes up through your life. That. So you're saying potentially that is actually an effective way to deal with your emotions. And you've actually. Um, Yeah. Exploded that as part of your toolbox to be able to get through tough times. You're going to, you know, you're going to go through losses in your life. Very through relationship. Breakouts, you're going to lose jobs. You're going to have a loved one star. All of these things. Um, I got to cause intense emotional pain. Inquiring is one of the most fundamental ways of being able to process that. And if you cut yourself off from that, Then. You know, you severely limit your ability to manage those. There's lots of. That must be so common. Why do you think it was a regionally. And this is a link to kind of. Well, you do. Why do you think it crying has traditionally been so demonized? Is it, you know, cultures or is it just kind of Western culture? I wonder. Um, I don't know the answer. But, you know, society has a lot to answer for. Um, he shapes a lot about what is expected and what isn't. Um, and you know, It really depends on what that size, you know, what. The structure that society has is dependent on what is the value and what they're trying to achieve. And. Um, what to try to uphold. And it might be. Oh wait, or it might be. Legend might play a role in there as well. It might be just that. What the generation did before. Okay, I'm going to go take a bit of a different path here. But speaking about. Big stoic. I want to go back to narcissists. Because you intrigued me that say. If. If they don't have this view of themselves. Like I'm the best thing since sliced bread. Right? So if they are suffering, I guess you could say. How do you do with a narcissist that you have to do with. In. I say this from feeling like I'm. Current not currently, let's say. I have, I need to do with narcissists sometimes through my work organizations. I'm part of. And there was one that I dealing with that I, that I suspected, and I'm not a psychologist. I'm not going to. Um, pretty cool. Determined, but I suspect he's a narcissist. Um, Talk himself up, like really immensely. Anything you say. Criticized the game he overreacts. Crazy. We'll send through, send huge lists of why you're wrong about him. Okay. Like to a degree where you go, you know, where's the like, How do you not see that this is. I use the term crazy, but like inappropriate. Excessive excessive. Um, I'm probably going to make it obvious who it is. But basically like, how do you deal with someone like me? Because I've caught myself and I don't like this about meeting. I've caught myself with the like, He sees himself as this. I know how to make him not see himself as this. I'm going to hit him where it hurts because I have proof that he's actually completely out of line and selfish. Okay. So, I guess, how do you do with people like that? I think it really depends on the nature of the relationship or what it is that you're trying to achieve. Um, so the way they would deal with it compared to like a business. How are you measured with like a loved one, for example? Um, But I think, uh, at a basic level, I wouldn't try to do anything to manage their behavior in that way. Um, it's. Uh, he's got a. That possession of himself that he's presenting. Yeah, you're not going to dissuade him from that. All right. It's impossible. Yeah. I mean without his consent, like. It's possible to do, but that's, you know, years of therapy. Um, that he's going to be putting the work in to. You can't. So, I guess, do you just need to take a practical approach to make sure it doesn't damage? Yeah. Boundaries. Um, Two. Outline very clearly. Where are the limits of. Acceptable behavior. Um, Although we know what it is that you need. Uh, from them. Uh, and it's up to them, whether they. Uh, correct. Within those boundaries. Uh, but then that, but then make sure that when those boundaries are crossed that there. There's a very clear consequence. What that's going to be. If there is no consequence. There was no boundary. Yes. Yeah, for rules allowed to get broken. There's no rule. Upset. So it just sounds like you're saying deal with them pragmatically, and there's no point of trying to be that person who's going to fix the problem. Yeah. You know, Yeah. So, I mean, what's that. I mean, what's that inside me? That I don't like where I go. I'm going to show him that he's an asshole for. For lack of a better term. I mean, that's just, I guess that's just anger. Yeah. Yeah. Um, That he is he's actions there that have negatively impacted upon you in some way. Negative impacted upon me and people and friends of mine. And I guess I want to be the guy that stands up. Yeah, you're feeling angry, feeling indignant. Uh, about that and wanting to protect yourself. Yeah. Wedding too. Um, I guess when someone. That's against this like that. Sometimes we can feel wait. Yeah. Um, we don't want to allow people to walk all over it. And say sometimes there's this sense of wanting to bushes? There's a sense of injustice. Hi, this guy's acting inappropriate multiple times. Yeah. Yeah. And back. I think. You're limited in what ability you have for, for justice in that kind of situation. So even if they've demonstrated over and over. That they don't operate in the, in the normal means of, I guess, You know, communications and, and good faith. There's no way I'm going to convince you otherwise. But yeah. I wouldn't think so. But I don't know the specifics of the situation. I would imagine on a, on a generalized approach that. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to, so. So, what do you think about the emotion anger? Is that ever. Useful. Anger's a hugely useful emotion. It's the purpose of the anger is that we don't allow people to take advantage of us. When someone's acting against us. Okay. Pushed back. So, so I guess then Dwayne need to be able to. Be self. Uh, aware enough to determine when the anger is justified. To do them when it's justified and to determine. Well, well, anger is a necessary emotion. We don't always want it to be in the driver's seat. We don't want the anchor to be making decisions for us. Um, because. Um, You know, the, the anger says, you know, I have to push back against this right now. I have to take some kind of action. I have to get justice. I have to get pensions. There's a lot of things that anger might say that might not actually be leading us in the direction that we want to be going. I've always. I mean, I've, I'm, I've been coming to the belief that anger is actually. Naughty useful emotion. I think maybe. Like, I think it was useful. But I think for the person who is living an intentional life, it potentially has lost its usefulness because you can just look at situations logically and be able to deal with them in a pragmatic way. And I think anger actually just. Becomes more self harmful than it does. I think anger is a useful emotion. I just don't think anger is a useful behavior. How do you split the two? Because isn't. Doesn't it. Isn't anger. When. Say again. We may be playing word games here. When someone crosses you and you will feel angry. Yeah. You'll feel that, that injustice and that indignation, that is anger, feeling the anger. Yeah, he's okay. It's not a problem. It's what we then do with that, that behavior we have in response to that Ang. That's what. No, it has the potential. I feel anger. We don't do anything with it. Then it's a pointless emotion because you're just hurting yourself. Um, we do need to be able to find ways of regulating that emotion. We don't want to bother that. We don't want to suppress it. We need healthy ways of being able to express that anger. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So, I guess there's two. There's two ways you can look at that. And you, can you express that anger? Um, by go punching a patch. Or can you dissipate it through techniques like mindfulness? Because that's a big one for me, I've been doing a lot of meditation, I for a long time now, on and off. But I think the most useful. Um, Part of our meditation or thing that I've learned from meditation is actually to be able to dissipate negative emotions. Right. So when I'm asking you. Realizing I'm angry and realizing. Siri, you want to come on the podcast? Um, I think the most valuable thing that I've found out of mindfulness and meditation is to be able to realize that I'm angry and then realize I'm telling myself a story. To be able to maintain that anger. And I'm actually exhausting myself. And like you said, I'm going to actually show up and behave in ways that are getting a negatively affect my life. Whereas if I can display the anger through mindfulness. Realizing, this is a thought pattern, changing the direction of that thought pattern. Looking at the problem logically. And PR and practically. Um, I find that, yeah. I don't know, I just, for me, I guess, Because so much issues in my life. And the part of having to get vengeance on paper, which I guess is another thing. But, um, that, that I just find, I, I, anytime I'm angry, It's usually at a point to kind of reflect and, and, and try to think logically instead of emotionally. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a feeling that anger. For what. Like, I think it's important for you to recognize that that's okay. Yeah. They don't give themselves a hard time for feeling. Angry. It's a normal part of human emotion. It's what we then do with it. So you, you mentioned. He do a bit of breathing techniques on pumps. Do you do meditation? Um, Not, not in that, I guess, additional sense. I think more influences. More my speed than. Ah, I don't know how you differentiate that. I guess. I mean, I think I do mindfulness meditation, if that makes sense. I think it's just the. Um, I guess the school of thought that you come from. As to whether you. And give it as more of a source meditation. You are doing a mindfulness before. It was cool. This is taken off that. Yeah, that's a good thing. It's a very. Absolutely. Um, That's the most of the things. I mean, I guess, do you have any advice for listeners on understanding and improving? Their own psychology. Is that word correctly? I mean their own. Mental mental health is probably a better. Uh, like the best thing that you can do. A few mental health. Uh, the basically is just look after yourself. Um, I think. Lead very busy lies. These days is lots of. Um, obligations that are put on us and we kind of run out of time to be doing those things. What do you mean. Well look after yourself because I think that actually means very different things. Very different. So the core things I think of looking after yourself, uh, eating well. Uh, and sleeping well. And exercise. These, those three things. Uh, hugely important for. So, if you think that's a low hanging fruit. And movers. And then after that, you can get into the nitty gritty of personal truly issues and stuff like that. Right. Okay. Um, yeah. And then building off, once you got those things kind of down, pat, And build on top of that with what. Brings your life. Like what introduces the positive experiences into your life? Yup. All right. Things that are enjoyable. That or they bring you joy. Um, things that bring you a sense of accomplishment or, or achieve. Um, things that allow connection with other people. And then your families within. Uh, community. Accomplishment and achievement. Are there things that, um, Potentially starting to actually say in a negative view and maybe it's because I've over index for them so heavily. Yeah. And I think that what counts as an accomplishment. As well. That if you clean the bathroom, that counselors. Uh, as an achievement. If you. Um, you know, Tick, tick the things off your, to do list for the very, they care of. The chief, but at least from where I'm standing, but don't have to be. Create a global business. Yeah. Well, it's funny because different aspects of my life, like I see meditation everyday as a, as an achievement. But then if you look at kind of my work achievements, The, uh, the bar's set so high that I just never hit it. I think it was different, different aspects of your life. Alright, I've got a couple of questions to wrap up. Uh, what's something most people don't know about. You. Uh, I guess I have a foster care. Um, what have been for. 20 plus years. I think my wife and that looks after that. Well, I was thinking about looking into that. And so, as I was saying earlier that, um, I have, I have three, three children. But, you know, being gay that. Didn't really go about making them myself. Okay. And so, uh, You know, foster care just became the way that. We decided to make, so those three. If you don't want me to ask you about this, but so. Those three children or foster children? Yes. What does that look like? As far as practical sense. I'm not sure I understand the what's the different phase of foster adoption. Ah, So, um, in, in a foster child, The state's. Still retains guardianship of the child. Whereas when a child is adopted. Um, the adoptive parents then. Become the. Have guardianship of the child. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. But, you know, But other than that, you operate like any other family. Just just, yeah, just say my youngest. Three, two. Turning 18. Yeah. Wow. Awesome. What's your definition of success. These are some, these are. Yeah. Questions. Um, When I started out. Uh, as a psychologist, I don't know. If I had an idea of. The conception of what success was going to be. Just. Did you care? I don't think I really did. Yeah. Um, It was something that I found interesting. Uh, I'll be doing it. Um, and that that's what comes in to be in. I started off. My first job. It would be employed by. Okay. We have a farm. And my role in counseling was helping out a lot with that. Um, and, uh, I moved into. Practice. And wrench out into that room. Uh, for many years, it's only been relatively recently that I've started by own. Okay. My clinic. And I think that that was huge. Um, just to take that, that step, but. I dunno. If I see that as successful, because I haven't been, it hasn't been the driver of doing any of that. I think that the driver for. Do you think inspired Y yeah. But just. Um, Just the freedom and the autonomy that, that. Um, Um, and sorry. Um, and so success. In business, isn't really the way that I think of success at all. I think it's, it's more. I have raised in. The three children to, to be good people. And. Um, that I have. You know, really good connections with family and friends and people that I love. And I think that's. Um, And, you know, weather difficult times. In that. Um, As much more than. Starting a clinic does. Oh, that was actually kind of the purpose of the question, I guess. Cause I mean, my, you asked me three years ago, what my definition of success is. It would just be strictly business success where I'm actually. That's meaning less and less to me. So I allowed hearing kind of other people, you know, what, what was their drivers in life? Um, yeah. And minds around kind of my relationship with my kids, my relationship with. Wife, um, Do I see myself as a good person? You. Do I have a Chu. Do I act. With, you know, with, within my own values, I guess you could say. Still figuring all that out. So I think that's a lifelong task. Yeah. We're getting those things out. Like it's certainly. Just my concept of myself in the world is very different now from what it was. 10. The go. And that was different when it was 10 years before that. Good. And we were constantly growing and developing understanding of. Of ourselves. And have the world works. Um, the kind of values that we hold. Greg fel. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it immensely.