Curious AF

#11 - Building a Business vs Building a Life - Deep Reflections - Trevor Keen

• Luke B

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Guest: Trevor Keen, an Entrepreneur, Founder & CEO of Conscious Healthcare SA. From scaling businesses to mastering work-life balance, Trevor shares insights on leadership, ambition, and taking six weeks off while his company thrived.  

Host: Luke Biermann, Managing Director of Mechanical Seal Engineering Pty Ltd, Councillor of Pump Industry Australia, Forum Chair of Entrepreneurs Organisation Adelaide, and Founder of Hard Stuff Podcast

Navigating Meaning and Purpose: A Conversation with Entrepreneur Trevor Keen - In this episode of the Hard Stuff Podcast, host Luke Biermann has an in-depth conversation with Trevor Keen, founder and CEO of Conscious Healthcare SA. Trevor shares his entrepreneurial journey, beginning with importing cricket balls as a teenager, and discusses the motivations behind creating Conscious Healthcare. The discussion touches on key topics including business, entrepreneurship, recruiting, personal growth, and the importance of meaning, purpose, and morality. Additionally, Luke and Trevor delve into personal reflections, the search for meaning beyond business, and the role of personal values shaped by past experiences. The episode concludes with a complex exploration of religion, secular morality, and how personal beliefs impact one's journey towards finding meaning and purpose in life.

ABOUT CURIOUS AF PODCAST

Curious AF is the evolution of what started as The Hard Stuff Podcast. Initially focused on guests who’d done hard things—ultra marathons, building businesses, overcoming personal challenges—it’s now becoming a broader platform to explore anything and everything I’m genuinely curious about.
The new direction is more personal and wide-ranging. I want it to feel like a space where I can follow my curiosity and have real conversations with people who inspire, challenge, or fascinate me.

For further information, contact:
Podcast Host - Luke Biermann
General Inquiries: hello@curiousaf.com.au
Instagram: @curiousaf.podcast

Hello and welcome to the hard stuff podcast today. My guest is Trevor Keene. Trevor Keene is an entrepreneur. He is a founder and CEO of conscious healthcare essay. He's built a pretty awesome business. We talk about business, entrepreneurship, recruiting, and then it goes into a bit of meaning, purpose, um, morality, stuff like that at the end, which is, which is all topics that I love to chat about. Hope you enjoy the show. If you do, please follow or subscribe on whatever audio platform that you're listening to on. Thanks for listening.

Recording 20:

Trevor Keen. Really excited to have you on the show for the second time after I lost the recording of our first episode. All good, thanks. Really excited to talk to you, mate. Um, I thought we'd start by diving into kind of your entrepreneurial journey, how you started and where you are today, because you're in a very interesting spot. So. Yeah, well, I think it actually starts before the business I'm in now. It started when I was about, I don't know if I was 16 or something like that. I actually, importing balls from over in America. So Juggs balls, which is like, I was into cricket. And so, um, it, that's where my curiosity came. I was like, well, I'm buying these balls. They're like 10 bucks a hit. And I'm like, they can't be 10 each. Like, this is ridiculous. This is going back quite, when I fair bit younger. You can talk about cricket balls. Cricket balls, yeah. So I imported them. And so I was like, well, I'm going to get them cheaper. And if I sell them to other people. I can then get them for me cheaper. I didn't work out that, you know, maybe there's like times a cost as well. Like, cause you know, it business at the time. I don't think a lot of entrepreneurs understand that time's a cost. Is time a cost? Like, hold up. Like as in human resources, only thing if you're hiring other people, my time is. It's free, right? So clearly a bit of a trap right there if I've ever seen one. Yeah. So, but yeah, anyway, so that was quite interesting. So I found that was as far as I was doing coaching. So then I was selling a service, which was that. Um, and yeah, I think I was like 15 I found that was how I was packaging things up and made heaps of mistakes. Selling the product of the balls was interesting. Did a lot of email marketing out to people, reaching out and people would come back and yeah, it was, it was very interesting. And then today, I mean, we're. In conscious healthcare, say how that started, I suppose that's where you wanted to go on shooting was that yeah, I was doing work as a physio. So I'm trained as a I've got a master in physiotherapy. That's a bit of my background. And so in starting physiotherapy, I was like, okay, well, So let's go out there and let's figure what this is all about. So I had a few different jobs and before I knew it, I was working in a place up north. And long story short, they were registered with NDIS, which Disability Insurance Scheme. And ultimately, uh, they weren't really doing what I thought was a great job. They, they didn't, they were registered, but they didn't really teach me about the NDIS. And then I was seeing someone. Uh, use the example of Jane, and when I was saying Jane, that she, uh, had cerebral palsy. Uh, and it's that name up. Um, her husband was in a wheelchair. She had two children, um, that were, had disabilities. She had three in total. So, there was a lot of dependence on her. And so I went through all of her funding, um, which is essentially her running out of see physio and that then could have led to a terrible situation. I don't know what's happening with Jane, um, because ultimately once you run out of funding, you don't see him again. And what I should have done was made sure I had a plan in place to have her fully function and, and develop and stay, mobile and able. Um, but yeah, I didn't do that unfortunately because I didn't have the insight. I was a bit ignorant in that side of things. And so. So that really inspired me. I was like, well, hold up, because in disability is not just about having people be able to eat, sleep, and shit, because that's the standard that's currently out there now. And the standard is And so that really inspired me to go, right, well, I can't do this any worse than what they're doing. So, uh, what I did was I went to the UK, uh, I was playing semi professional cricket. And so I spent a year studying the NDIS really thoroughly because I was like, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this better. Like, as in over my dead grave, will I do a worse job? Um, and then, yeah, I started out of that. So there's two motivations. One was the whole quality of care and raising the bar. That's definitely one of the big things. And the second thing was really about allied health practitioners. They only last for three to five years. So they spend three to four years studying, roughly, and then they only last for three to five years. And so, Luke, you know, if you're only three to five years in, you're only just knowing how to do really nice bows for your shoelaces, right? You don't know too many things at that stage. But that's when people are exiting. And I think, well, if, you know, Luke had 20 years experience. And Luke was now teaching Luke Jr. What sort of quality care would you be able to provide to your mum, dad, brother or sister? It has to be a lot better. And so the people that then learn, it creates a better cycle, right? We're now doing more innovative, awesome things. We're moving the needle forward as opposed to just re repeating the same silly things time and time again. So it's really about the whole quality focus on both sides, right? Um, and that's the wellness and longevity of practitioners in conjunction obviously, uh, with providing better quality care. So that's the passion and motivation behind it. That's awesome. I'm, I'm interested to understand a bit more about, um, that's a really interesting concept and how you figured out that people were only staying in the industry for a short period of time. What did that look like? Did you kind of do some research into why people were leaving and try to solve that, that issue? Was that? Yeah, well, it's, it's actually, I don't know exactly how I came across. I just found it was intriguing. I think when you go to uni, uh, one of the things just as you graduate is they tend to like link you up with various professional associations and things like that. I suspect the same in space. Um, so the APA or Australian Physiotherapy Association, they track it and also APRA does, which is Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Authority. So they actually track how long people stay and so they often way, but they're like, Hey, the average career is this long. So it lets you know what's your pathway, where you are, where might you go and what things might look like into the future. And I sort of thought, wow, that's a terrible future. You're telling me I've studied all this time only to leave in that time. Why are they leaving? I just got curious. I'm a very curious soul. And so yeah, that's, that's how I sort of came about it. Uh, and the professional associations have the stats on it. update it and all that as well, but there's multiple different it, such as business models, the type of people that are attracted to the industry. You've got caring type people in a caring industry. So what do you reckon, Luke, that you end up having as an issue with caring people in a caring industry? you know, I guess emotional baggage or trauma as yeah, cause there's a issue in regards to emotional regulation, time boundaries, assertiveness. So if we add these skills in. Yeah. Now we're overcoming all the issues, right? Now some of the practical issues, there's other things such as we're in a model which is all billable hours, um, which is not, I don't think a great model because if Luke's got 20 years experience, are you going to be somewhat better than the person with one year experience maybe? Yeah, a hundred percent. You'd hope so. I mean, provided you learn growing together. So it's not only billable hours, it's fixed rate billable hours. Exactly. So there's no differentiation between one with. One year experience and 20 years experience and he started career growth and that's a huge top out top out at about funnily enough three to five years is where you tap out from a career growth perspective because you've either got to build more billable hours. which this is a, not a, it's a zero sum game. Like as in, you can build more, but then it's just like, what's it costing you? Because now you've got, you know, emotional sort of baggage that you now can't comprehend. Are you losing the enjoyment? So now you're trying to push things through. It's like the whole, do we want to become GPs? Where we're like pushing through a lot of people and it's all about quantity rather than quality. Cause a lot of people get in the industry for caring reasons. So these are some of the sort of issues that come up and I've spoken to a lot of the peak presidents of the associations about it. I haven't got any answers yet fully, but we're Wow. Okay. So, so whereabouts are you now in your business in relation to what, what's your role? What are you doing? Yeah, perfect. So at the moment I'm my role CEO and in recruitment. So CEO role, essentially more strategic role. So making sure that we've got the right bums in the right seats. then what I sort of do in that space as well is. Pretty much make sure we've got the strategy sure that we've got good cadence, comes along with it. So we've got an advisory board and just making sure that we're sort of ticking along. How's the business plan going? Are we fishing in the right pond? You know, like ultimately, is there a market here for us to serve? Cause if there's not, then there's an issue. So that's the sort of CEO aspect. And then in regards to the recruiting side, well, ultimately more good people come into an already great organization. Like if we can scale that, that's fantastic. Um, they talk about, you know, one bad egg can sort of ruin three or four good eggs. So, uh, I think recruiting is the single most useful thing in an organization. I know Stephen Bartlett, um, goes on about that a lot and I think for good reason too. I, I think it is too. I completely agree with that. And, and, and if I look back at kind of my business journey and, and most of my headaches, it's just because of poor recruiting. Yeah. And over and over, I would get to a point where, you know, there was an issue because of my Uh, lack of care in the, in, in, in the recruiting and, um, yeah, the, the damage it's done over the years is Yeah. I'd sort of say with that, it's probably lack of insight in regards to the impact of it. And you're prioritizing X, Y, and Z, which seems really urgent and important, but it's probably important. Sorry, urgent, but not important. So like what I mean by that is how thorough is the process for onboarding? What's it look like? Because it's so much easier to hire someone because you've got a need as opposed to, Thoroughly building that process out and making sure that you really take care of it. And it depends on the industry and that as well, right? Like I said, you have to really understand it. We take a lot of time to understand our customers. But the people that work with us are also customers. So like I said, us really understanding or hold up. Like I said, if I hire the wrong person, what problem am I actually inviting into? It's almost like inviting them into your bedroom, right? Like I said, it's like a marriage really. Like I said, in regards to they're in the business. You're seeing them a lot. They're impacting culture. They impact what you think about at night. So, this is very timely for me because I'm currently hiring a mechanical engineer. I've got six stage one interviews on Friday. some tips and tricks, mate. What have you figured out over the years? Oh, look, it depends. I'm obviously not in your space, so I suspect you're going to be much better at that than what I would be for that sort of scenario. I mean, how we go about it is typically, let's say, if we've got people that have applied, so you've got six people that have applied, we generically sort of, um, how we approach that is, So if they've applied, I usually send out an assessment for them to do first. Now, this is all tailored to us in healthcare. So there'll be something that will be different mechanical engineer. Like what are the sort of traits that a mechanical engineer, good one would have as such Analytical, I'm assuming. Very, yeah. Analytical. Depending on what the specific role is, creative, organized. Yep. Yep. So those types of things. So then there would be a personality profile that would most suit. Now, just because someone fits a profile necessarily going to be good. But I've worked out what the three type of are for our industry. Um, there'll be the same sort a mechanical engineer. Um, and then also, all right, well, how can I now test and assess? process and in the interview to make sure that they're a good fit or not. So like for example, uh, a mechanical engineer, uh, organized lots of stuff. Well, I mean, how did they apply it when they applied? Was the cover letter, you know, did they pay attention to detail there or where would you expect to see that they would do well or not? So some people I've heard of that they have in the. job descriptor, sorry, the application process. They say, Hey, send an email and make sure in it. And or something silly, right? But then it's like noticing that they've paid attention to detail. So that's demonstrating that they're actually using the skill or they just carelessly applying for a lot of different jobs. Yeah. So, I mean, this is, I'm for the first time in the position where I can actually. Um, really kind of think about these kinds of things, right? Because in our industry within Australia, there's such a huge labor shortage. And every time I try to apply for a specific role, you just, and maybe look, I'm not spreading the net wide enough during that process, but I'm just not getting enough quality applicants. So, um, I've spoken about this before, um, we're, we're actually going to going overseas. And I'm trying to take, you know, our business global, right? So we're, we're trying to do a lot more product development. So yeah, now I'm in the position where I actually have basically an unlimited amount of applicants. So I can really play with those. Um, yeah, really think about that a lot more. I'm still trying to figure out how that fits into my business, I guess, because it's something that I haven't been good at lately, uh, recently. So. Oh, it makes a lot of sense and it's easy to skip over. I mean, organizational psychologists, stuff as well. So I don't know if you've heard of them before. No, I haven't. I was talking to a friend and he put me on to, uh, Test Gorilla and he said, have a really good look at that site. There's a lot of good tests that you can, you can give to people, but no, I don't know about organizing organizational psychology. Well, I mean, like, uh, I'm pretty big into Myers now Myers Briggs it's not a great Um, when I say it's not a great many more that are very can essentially work out whether Luke's telling the truth or whether Luke's lying. Because ultimately you're still presenting yourself, right? There's a little bit of marketing and sales going on for someone getting a job, but both ways. This is why I hate hiring sales reps. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, like as in, you're a good sales rep. Right there, wrong way. You actually want them to. I was talking to a, a organizational psychologist about this today. They're actually right? Yeah. Um, comes up. Um, but that's actually a positive thing in sales, noting that you also want them to be values focused and centric so they're authentic, right? So I don't want someone who can just use NLP or neurolinguistic programming to then prime you to then get the outcome and result you want from the person, which is a thing. It's a massive I'm quite astute. Maybe not enough, but like I said, that's a real thing where. You can manipulate and prime people certain outcomes results like you heard of the three yes rule? No. So if I can get you to say yes three times, I've got whatever Right? So now we're like, there's dark psychology and stuff like that and I don't really advocate at all for that. I think authenticity is really important but understanding, right, for that type of role, what would that look like? So for example, was a good mechanical engineer typically extrovert or introvert? Introvert. Introvert. Right. Why? Why is that important? Because I need to sit in front of a computer all day and, and dive into one specific problem and I don't, know. Well it's, it's good to, I think you correct there, right? So an introvert doesn't mind being by himself. An extrovert has to get up and talk. I mean, I'm very extroverted. So like as in for me, if I sat down all day, I've got to have contact with humans. Otherwise I sort of, my heart stops ticking or something like that, right? Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think introverts have, More of a passion for things and extroverts have more of a passion for people. Oh, yeah. It's probably a decent observation. Maybe. Well, let's keep following the train right? Yeah. So then, so Myers Briggs is 16 personalities. So we've already worked out it's an eye, yeah, is the personality. So, and then you're either sensing or you're intuitive. So, do they like big say I walk down the street and I can see every business model that's there. I see all the big concepts and idea. Um, but then a sensing person, notice notices, whether it's hot or cold, and they can really see, okay, well, I'm warm or I'm cold, or they notice all the little astute things. So I'm a a big picture thinker. Most entrepreneurs are big picture thinkers, but what's a mechanical engineer? Are they, so, so are they big picture thinkers or what's, what's the alternative? Sensing. So it's for product development. Also, that's creative, right? So creative is bigger picture thinking. Yeah, I think it would have to be bigger picture thinking. But let's not think about this too much, right? I just like playing around with it, right? And you can use chat GPT or whatever your AI equivalent is to play around with these different things. But like, let's say if we play that out. So it's bigger picture thinking. So it's IN. And then is it a feeling type person or a thinking type person? We already know the answer. What do you reckon? Uh, thinking. Thinking. All right. So we already know it's an I N, maybe T. Yeah. And then are they perceptive or are they judgmental? So perceptive is more like, not so much intuitive, but like as in, uh, well let's say judgmental is extremely precise and they're like, has to be done this way and all this stuff. Or are they a bit more like sort of on gut instinct? Uh. They just know. They don't know how they know, but they know. No, no, no. It can't be that. Yeah. Nope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they'll be able to follow very strict standards. Yeah. So if you look into an I N. TJ, you probably end up engineer. Okay. What are you? Are you? I'm an ENTJ, so extroverted. Yeah. Intuitive, so bigger picture thinker. Uh, thinking, uh, and then and J is not a bad thing. Wait, what's judgmental again? So J just means that you're very precise. And so like, as in, So I'm, I'm not that, and that's why I'm striking in this conversation. Well, yeah, this is, this is good though. So you might be P, which is perceptive. So you like, you like, you might be say, uh, E, extroverted, bigger picture so like, um, E, N, right? Thinking or feeling. I definitely think you're more on the thinking side. So ENTP, which is, that's its own superpower, right? And you can look them up. They actually give you examples as to who are these type of people. And then in addition to who are these type of people, you can sort of see what the strengths and weaknesses Strengths or areas of improvement. They're very interesting because if you look at that personality type, which I don't know if it comes like that, but like when you look at that, you'll notice certain traits that have or not. And it'd be really interesting to compare that to a job spec. And the skills profile that you'd want. So that's the type of thing that an organizational psychologist should be able to be reasonably good at. Um, but in addition to that, like, what would you want to test? Like, as in, you know, and we don't have to keep going down this too far, right? Yeah. But like, as in, it's interesting to know, you know, what would a mechanical engineer do and what would they not do? Because it's just important what they do do, as to what they don't do. Because that's ruling in and ruling out. So now we're screening. Yeah. Yeah, this is, uh, very in depth for me, but I can tell you what issues I've had in the past with hiring. Yeah. And also, I've never hired a mechanical engineer before, right? So we've hired sales reps, um, tradesmen, all that kind of thing. Mechanical engineer is very different. We're moving more and more heavily into our own product development rather than using other people's Um, but the issues I've had in the past with hiring is, I guess, missing red flags around distrustful people, like, but you know, basically manipulative, overly manipulative people. Um, so hard people, um, thought I've done my due diligence as far as, you know, calling prior employees and stuff like that. But then, you know, we get a few months down the track and we realized that they're actually hiding things from us and lying, like lying and stuff like that. So honesty is a huge one for me. Um, but then when I look back at the hiring process, I go, Oh, I actually missed that, that and that. A hundred percent. Yeah. Well, I was just about to say, all right, we'll hold up. Cause if I'm interviewing you, I've now got your Myers Briggs profile and I'm somewhat decent at assessing that. So now I can sit in the interview and I can see everything that you say and does it fit in alignment? Have you given me a bullshit response? Or is this actually genuinely you? Because you can present, there's certain ones that look better than the others. Now there's strengths and weaknesses on both sides. I want to be really clear. I wouldn't hire or not hire someone based upon that. But I do look for congruency and consistency because that's really important. We also do a values check as well. So like as in one of the key questions I always ask you is, look, tell us about three core values for you, personal values. And then they will answer, right? And then I go through our values. And then I say, right, well, here's our four values. I really want you to, So tell me in regards to do they align with you or do they not and which one's your favorite and why? So really going through, so now we're sort of working out the sort of personality fit, where are they at from values. Now salary and all these other things come into it, but that's kind of like boring things really. Like then it's just like, you know, you've got to have petrol the damn thing going. So like as in there's some basic things in there, but what also happens in the interview process? How do you screen them in, screen them out? Like as in, what does great look like? Do you know what great looks like for, I think you said Friday this week? As in what does great look like? Oh yeah, what's a great mechanical engineer look like? As in what's success look like? Let's say it's now two weeks Monday and they're starting or whatever it As in what is the first? What do they bring to the organization? What do they have what are they doing? What are they not doing? Yeah, yeah. You getting clearer on those type of things? Yeah, yeah, 100%. That really then makes a huge difference because you now ask different questions. Cause I'm going to ask, so we're very, like, if someone wasn't empathetic in our industry, like I said, that would challenging because we're working with people with disability. So communication skills is a big one. You've got to be empathetic. Um, but you don't want them to be too empathetic in regards to that, you know, they've got to make sure that they see so many people and they need to see five or three, whatever it is. But like I said, Oh, but you know, this person's having a hard day. So I spent the whole day with this person. Well, that's not going to work. Cause you need to make sure that there's a balance between the practicalities to help, but I can help within the confines of X, Y, and Z, right? So there's multiple sort of things from there. Yeah. You made it very clear that I need to, uh, improve on my hiring. I'd say, I mean, the way I currently look at it and, um, you know, I'm doing a lot of the prep work over the next couple of days, but, and I've never hired an engineer as well. So I'm still figuring a lot of this out, but the way I looked at it was. you know, there's, can they do the technical side of it, which is easy? Um, and then are they a culture fit? I mean, that, that's as basic as I was looking at it, but it sounds like I need a deeper dive. This Myers Briggs, I mean, is that, is there a specific organization that carries these out for you? Or is this just a, Uh, so it depends on what role we're doing. So if it's just a general role, uh, it depends if we're sort of going, look, pretty much Myers Briggs is for most people. If I'm hiring a senior executive, I'm then going to. I do a Briggs is a company that you engage with? Uh, well, Myers Briggs is the assessment. If you look at 16 personalities, it'll come up as a free assessment you can do online. Yeah. And then there's more extensive profiles. There's DISC and all these other things as well. They all translate honest, like as in, uh, won't go through DISC and all that, but like there's these assessments you can do. All I would say is that, say I've done the, think it's the 15FQ and I've used an organizational psychologist for that and that one is incredible. Like as in, I can not have met that person and I can tell you, right, when you interviewed them, this is what you would have seen and you wouldn't have seen this and they would have liked this and they wouldn't like that. They can literally tell you, now it's not everything, right? But like as in, if you're lying, it comes up and it says like, nah, like as in they lied and we won't let them pass through. So it's validated in many respects, which I think is Whereas Myers Briggs, you can get a couple of questions the other way. And it changes where you're at and some people are answering it because how do I want Luke to perceive me as opposed to, no, no, no, this is what I'm really like because at work and home, are you a bit different at work compared to home? Yeah, a hundred percent. So it depends on your mindset and in regards to how you're so if you're thinking about work context, you might show up as being generally more extroverted as a rule of thumb. A lot of people are more on the roles. Um, so it's important to understand those types of things, but yeah, so the 16 personalities is where you'd sort of go to do that. Um, and I highly recommend just any like my, I think I said it last time on the podcast we had it. I really want to make personal development sexy again because I reckon if society in the world knew a thing or two more about themselves, they're going to further their own vision and whatever it because they're going to be better equipped to be able to move from A to B and hopefully B Yeah, well look, it's interesting to say that because you know, you spoke about your role before as CEO and, and that's exactly how I see. My role, but the only thing that I would add on to that, uh, is trying to empower people in the business to become leaders, right? So, um, over the last 12 to 18 months, finally put in a leadership team and, um, you know, the, the stuff that I put in those spots have really taken to it and, and the development I've seen on their side is amazing. Yeah, if I can empower them and get them the training they need to keep growing as a leader, I think I had a fear. This is, this is a very small business mentality, but I had a fear that if I train them up and then somebody would post them, you know, but I think that's just silly. You've just got to train them up and look after them, I guess. Oh, I mean, it makes a lot that might well happen. It's not untrue. I mean, people have, I've had people work with us and then they go work elsewhere. Like as in people have got jobs. I mean, I suppose, what's the. Value proposition. And this is something like, we'll move off the recruiting to the topic maybe, but like I was saying, 100%, but like I was saying, employee value proposition. So why would I work for you versus someone else? Like there's a big difference between you and maybe a huge conglomerate, right? Yeah. I suppose you get more autonomy, you get more closer to it. Less bureaucracy. You know what I mean? So like I was saying, that's what we've got, right? Like Conscious Healthcare SA. We're quite an innovative organization. Like we've got our values, which you outlined that a bit as well. We're very big into flexibility. So autonomy through accountability. These are certain things that we believe. Like, what is your culture and your organization believe in? And what can you offer that others can't? So if you get that fit, I think you end up finding like one, you really want to have people inboundly inquiring. So not just like, Hey, here's a job advert. Like what about the people that are emailing you? Um, in the last couple of weeks, two or three, I think, and I've just seen as I had really love to either work for free or whatever else it is, or just love to see if there's any opportunities at this organization like that. That is awesome, right? Because that person's now reached out their own wheel, not the person that's lost a job or whatever it is, needs another job because you've got two types of candidates. I'm not sure if you're aware, you've got active candidates who are. already on the market and you've got passive candidates. Okay. So I was aware, but I never put a name to it. And I think another issue was, what was it, active and passive? Active and passive. So active is that they're actively looking. Now passive, the big difference here is I'm already happy where I'm at. So active is where I've got everybody. And that's where a lot of the issues have come from because they're active for a reason. Well, I mean, they may be or they may not. Well, I'm talking about the specific instances for Look, I'm not going to lie to you. I'd passive candidates than active candidates got someone to then from an organization or wherever they've been at to then come join us, it must generally be because of values, alignment and opportunity and where they're going. So we've had someone leave recently. I've had some people that have two or three actually in the last, say, three or four months that have left an organization, a larger organization, and they were there for 10 years and come and join our organization. We're only 30 people. We're not Um, but there's something that we can offer that they're obviously Um, so whether that's a career growth opportunity, there's many different things as to why people choose X, Y, and Z, but I think it's important to understand what you can offer them, what people want. People want challenge. Yeah, we should be clear about it. I mean, I guess it's the same as, you know, what, what's your value, value proposition to your, to your customers if you do the same thing internally. A hundred percent. I mean, I, uh, Daniel Pink, you heard of him before. Um, he talks about autonomy, mastery, and So that psychological nutrients that you need to thrive. So, autonomy, I think that goes without saying, that's like independence You've got to feel like, as in, hey, are you listening to me? Or am I just here, am I another sort of cog in the engine, or whatever it looks like, and you don't really care whether I'm here, you'll just replace me with someone else. Like, do I matter? Is there impacted meaning? Next thing is in, uh, mastery. Well, that's I'm assuming a mechanical engineer is going to get a bit of feedback about whether things work or not, right? That's going to be a little bit from the customer or whatever else it is and, and designing it. And so autonomy, uh, mastery and then purpose. So purpose is, um, in our interview process, we work on, there's motivation mapping and there's nine core motivators that people have. And I find that really interesting because a salesperson's motivators versus someone who is maybe an occupational therapist, any idea about what might be a bit of a difference? Like what does a salesperson care about? So, hunting and killing, I guess. Oh, yeah. Money, right? Like, achievements, results, status. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas, you know, an occupational therapist really cares generally motivated by connection and friendship It's a version of the things versus people. Yeah, yeah, which is quite a deceptive insight. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So, I wanted to ask you about where you are now in your business journey. What are you doing? What does your week look like? Yeah. So it's been a bit interesting and changed a bit. So I've been working with Ben, my coach, and at the moment working about 25 hours a week, uh, it's been a little bit fuzzy, like bit more, um, not generally less, but like as in essentially doing a bunch of recruiting. So I've got various different conversations and interviews that I have. And so that's kind of what a day to day sort of looks like. Quite a lot of messages or interviews and things like that. Yeah. That's Um, obviously the whole applicants and following up and providing feedback and whatever that sort of might look like. Um, but yeah, outside of that, I've got a leadership team meeting that I attend months a week and catch up with the general manager. I've got a general manager, so that means that that's my main report. And then I've also got a person in house. I've got two main one on one meetings that I have each week. And outside of that, it's kind of Yeah. Do you, did you have any internal resistance towards working less hours? Oh, because that is a brilliant question. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, they actually get to the point where they can have that freedom, but they, their, their own mindset doesn't allow it. You know what I mean? Like how much of your Well, I've actively tried to move away from that, right? So I've been very vocal about the fact that I think it's dangerous having all your identity within your business. I think, and that's why part of my identity is, you know, within fitness and stuff like that. What we're doing right now is a, is another version of what I'm trying to, you know, use my identity or, you know, uh, identify as this is my creative outlet. And then you've got things like, you know, family. Um, I try to identify as a husband and father, you know, that's part of who I am. I'm not just. a business owner and I think when I was younger I put so much into that and then when something happens like you look at your books and you realize you've made a few mistakes and you're hundreds of thousands in debt and you're worried the business is going to go under your whole identity crashes right because you've got no other avenues to actually derive meaning or I guess self worth out of so I think Yeah, I think a lot of people do that poorly actually and they put their whole identity within their work. Yeah. I, I completely agree. And I presented on this as you well know, we're both in the entrepreneurs organization. I presented on this, uh, think it was June last year, um, or something like that. We're on one of the retreats and I presented on it like as in something about like self esteem, like as in, um, how do I have my self esteem be outside? of just my work. So I mean, I'm, I'm confident, right? That's like what I've built up. And I'm like, hold up. Do I want to be known as competent? Is that what I'm going to have on my tombstone? Like Luke's competent. He gets shit done. You know, I mean, all right, that's cool. There's some utility or there's some benefit to that. But what are the drawbacks? Like, so I really want to be known as someone who's kind and caring and someone who's maybe fun to have a bit of a laugh as far as, you know, there was some impact and meaning around what he did. Um, it was very values focused. I really want to be known as someone that did it because it was the right thing to do. Not necessarily because, you know, he just wanted extra money or whatever that looked like. Integrity. Yeah. I think that's really important to have that constitution and, uh, yeah, it's someone that is. Yeah, just authentic is really important. Like that whole self expressed and doing the right things and just being a good human. I don't think it costs you any money No, it doesn't. So where, where, where would you say your other identity sources draw from at this point in your life? Yeah, so You've drastically reduced the amount of hours you're working. Yeah. So huge change in regards to doing the change. I did a lot of work on Me now, I identify as a husband, as a father, so I've got a five and a half, a five and a half son. Um, so husband, father, business owner, entrepreneur and lots of stuff. Uh, love learning. That's a big thing. Um, identify as, like health has been a much bigger priority focus for me. I've noticed that I've neglected that over quite a while. I'm still in half decent shape. But like I was saying, definitely, um, my mental health has incredibly improved since. since I've had a greater focus on that. So, um, yeah, so that's sort of a bit about me. I play squash. So, um, that's another part of my identity that I'm working on. Um, and it is a work in progress because for me, still probably got like, what, maybe 80 is wrapped up in work. And so I'm really working on striking that balance and, you know, if someone resigned or whatever that looks like as in, I've historically taken that really personally, not just from and all that, but it's like. the identity is me, it's like, well, there must be something wrong wanting to leave. You've done something wrong to make this person not feel. People come and go. Like the onboarding process is meant to have you, hopefully we've hired the right person and you either graduate and you stay with us or not. You graduate elsewhere, right? It's just not with us. So, I mean, that's a great outcome one way or the other, because you don't want the wrong person staying in there and you want the right person staying. um, so yeah, it's probably a bit of a mix there and I'm still working on that at the moment. It's an active process. I think the biggest thing, which is, uh, controversial to say, I reckon the biggest thing that stops entrepreneurs being able to step back out of that business is are they willing to do the emotional work as far as transforming. What I mean by that is I've been doing a lot of dating of my emotions I've been doing a lot of looking at my beliefs and what's given me what I want and what I don't and the deep dive sheets that we have within EO are pretty useful for that. Uh, and I've been just picking that apart and going, okay, we'll hold up. Um, I think we might've discussed is actually the first podcast, um, that we did. So like, as in the emotions, the emotions that I'm very comfortable with is like stress. Uh, and cause you've got like Tony Robbins, I think is where I got a lot of this stuff from, but like, as in there's say like three to four emotions are acceptable. So like, as in for me, it's like being stressed, happy, and maybe like. angry or frustrated or something like that is sort of the main ones. And so it's very much cortisol driven, right? So, which, you know, Hey, cool. If, uh, if you like being an underdog and persevering, but if you don't like, I mean, maybe like, what about being calm? Is that cool? Do you like, are you happy being calm Luke? Me? Well, no, that's, this is something I'm actively working on. Um, I, I think I lived. My 20s in this heightened sense of stress and I just, I thought there was something I guess heroic about constantly just, you know, and this goes to like working long hours, taking on everything, refusing to delegate everything because I have to do everything because I'm super capable and it just led to me being on this, I don't know, this, this crazy anxiety thing. Um, so I go and I was just, I got to the point where I'm like, this is not how I want to live, you know, and I'm in the same, what he put it really interesting. I just, this goes back to the intuitive thing. I feel like I think all these things, but I don't actually put them into words. So yeah, it's, um, cause, cause I'm in a similar situation, right? So I'm working less hours and I'm actually trying to figure out. What is my place in the world and, and where, and, and where am I going to drive meaning? Because I was just, so much of it came from, you know, I want to be the guy that builds this huge business. But now I'm just like, why? You know, I've got enough resources and I've got the freedom, which is what I always said I want. But now what am I going to do with it? You know? I wonder why it mattered in when were you, when were you happy? When were you? I've got a theory. Um, let's roll it. Yeah. So my theory is, you know, I, I was such a, I would say, uh, there was some bullying in early high, sorry, in primary school. And that led to me being so anxiety ridden in my high school, like years, right? And then when I finished high school, I started drinking and partying heavily and that actually gave me the freedom from anxiety and it gave me the. Um, ability to connect with people that I didn't have because I was held back by my anxiety. When I was drinking, I was this fun, outrageous, outgoing guy. But then the dark side of that, those partying years led me to do some things that I was deeply ashamed from, ashamed of within. And I actually felt like I was a burden to the world and I felt like I wasn't worthy. You know, I wasn't capable of being loved or nor did I deserve it because some of the things that I've done during those years. I thought I needed to prove myself to the world, right? And did you? Well, I mean, uh, how do I put this? Like, maybe, maybe not, but I just don't care what the world sees anymore. So it's like, you know, I've been on this journey of like, I need to prove that I'm worthy. I need to prove that I'm worthy. And then I finally actually got somewhere in my life and cut. And as I get older and start caring more about, know, realizing my values, I'll be a good husband and father. Um, all of that deep, uh, self, those deep self worth issues, I've kind of dissipating away and I don't have that drive to prove myself to other people anymore. And now I'm just like in this position where I've built a substantial business and I have the freedom, but I don't have that little man inside me telling me, you need to prove to the world that you're good enough. And now I'm lost. I'm lost in the jungle. I don't know what to do. Does that make sense? Does that resonate at all? It's really interesting from, uh, Joe Pane. I can't remember if you went to Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So he presented on emotional fitness and I interviewed him as well. was really fascinating how you go to meaning. I mean, you've gone from ambition and you're at the meaning stage from what I can hear. I mean, I might be wrong and I'm certainly no psychologist. I want to be really clear. I've just dived off the cliff, cliff from ambition to meaning and I'm drowning. Well, I mean, it's, it's interesting though, right? Cause like there's things like Steve Jobs, I think put this the best that I've ever seen. And it's kind of like, you can't figure out who you are and what you're about look backwards. it's just like, well, what got are today? And I'll unpack that a little bit through my lens and then you can overlay that onto yours. So like for me, like the last five years, I've worked nearly nine or 10 years. So I've literally, I wouldn't even do a very good job of explaining what fun is. I mean, I was at a, uh, the pub the other day and I was like sitting next to a couple of people and I was like, should I listen in on that conversation or something like that so I can figure what they're like talking at ease? Cause I'm always about achieving stuff. But so hold up. Why does it matter if I achieve? Like, why? What's the meaning behind it? Like, as in, because I'm always typically goal orientated, but it's just like, well, if you get a goal, don't you want to share with Luke or whatever it is that, Hey, I've done this. It means this to me, like, this is what it means to I'm proud. I mean, like, remember, I'm sure you've, you've got children or not. So stuff like, as in, here's my little painting, you know, your son or daughter comes up and shows it to you. Now it might not be, it's not, you know, Michelangelo or whoever else it is, but like, as into them, it's really meaningful, right? Yeah. Like, why, why does that matter to them? Uh, yeah, it matters because they need to prove they're capable. I guess something like that. Well, I mean, like, as in, they just think Yeah. It's, it's because it's meaningful to them. I mean, yeah, sure. They've done some work in that. But like, as in, as a kid, like, as in, you're quite creative and they've done these sort of tests in regards to, There's like a, uh, genius sort of creativity test or something like that. And like I was saying, five year olds, most of them all can get genius status. And we then beat the crap out of that over many years going through schools. So like I was saying, Ken Robinson goes through, I think it's Ken Robinson, it's like, why do schools kill creativity? And they do, because we want to essentially get them to go through and become really good soldiers. And that was great when the world required more soldiers, but we don't need any more soldiers. We need more people that are interested in making You know, being curious about various different problems and solving them and actually having a purpose and meaning and impact on others. Like we've got many problems like loneliness, isolation, like as you know, I can come up with you a few different friends. Like how do you, how do you make don't even know how to make friends nowadays. Like as in, hello, superficial conversations, like as in what happened to like sitting on a bus and looking over at the next person saying, Hey, how you doing? Or in a lift? Or do you just pick your phone up and have a look? Let me try to put everything you just said together. Now you, so you spoke about the, you know, the, why does a kid naturally want to show you, and then you related that to your own goals and want to talk about your goals. Let me just see whether this kind of resonates with you as far as my journey. I think you get to a point, especially if someone that's obsessed with goals and achieving, whereas you build, build this thing like the business, right? And you get to a point where the, where the people that you've always hung around with and bounce, you know, so I, I actually felt like, for lack of a better term, like you get to the point where you feel like a wanker going, Oh, I've had this business success. You know what I mean? And like you, you feel, I felt extremely braggadocious yet the business was also my life. So trying to connect with old friends becomes this, like we have nothing to talk about because my whole life is my business. And I feel like a wanker talking about it because it feels just braggadocious, right? So I felt like I was in this no man's land and very lonely for a long time. Um, and you said, how do you make friends? You know, this is my attempt by joining EO and that I felt like I was kind of. That was a kind of a life raft for me out of the lonely, lonely years. Does that resonate with anything you were saying? Yeah, it does. I think I'd probably look at it through a few different lenses. Like, you've got Maslow's Hierarchy of Need. I mean, you can see I'm very into psychology. Yeah, I know, I can't keep up, but I love it. But like I said, Maslow's Hierarchy of Need. So you've got food, shelter, water. You know, connection, belonging, all these other things. So if you look it up later on, you'll sort of have a look. I don't know if you have I have, I think through you. Self actualization is the top of the pyramid, right? And self actualization is like, okay, well essentially like what can I do to self actualize, to become my authentic self and whatever that looks like. And if you look at it, let's just go back, I'll hopefully do justice here. You got bullied when you were younger and lots of stuff. So you heard of Dr. Demartini? No. So there's a book called The Values Factor. And there's also another concept called psychodynamics, which is essentially You know how opposites often attract, but also like, let's say if I project out as being really confident, what I'm actually really. If opposites, if I project I'm usually quite insecure. Insecure. I'm just trying to process that in real time. Yeah. So that's right. Well, so I'll give you space to comprehend this and we'll go, we'll go further. Let's explore. So when you were bullied, right, when you were younger, so what did that mean you do? Did that mean you went into your shell or did you fight? were you people pleaser? Or did you? I'm a people pleaser. I'm getting, I'm getting out of that now, but I have a deep history of people pleasing. Well, so, cause you're bullied, right? Yeah. So like, as in, if I do whatever they want or people want, then they'll like me. Yeah, I had, and that's where my anxiety came from. I had such a need for people to like me. Yeah. So was that authentic? The need for people to like me? Was that authentic? As a human, we need connection, but like, as in, Were you being you? Were they liking you for you or liking you for the persona that you put up? Oh, yeah. The persona. Yeah. So if we bring that right back to attachment a child. So like, I don't know if you know much about that. I know there's a lot of theories. But like essentially, you've got secure attachments where people are happy to be like, Hey, I'm okay. You're okay. But then we've also got other stuff like you might be anxious, right? And so if you're anxious, you've got like as in, uh, you could be anxious or you could be anxious avoidant. Lots of different things. So you might be the sort of person that It doesn't let people get close or it needs to have enough distance. You've got all different sorts of things. And so for example, if you had to be a certain way, and I know several different people that have got anxiety and have this show up in various ways. So if I've got to be a certain way in order for you to like me, then like as in, if I'm anything else other than that, because like, what are you doing? You're trying to constantly guard and have image. I'm trying to sit in the right spot because you know, if I'm sitting like, if I authentically sit like this. sitting back and And maybe that's me authentically. What if you don't like it like that? So if I sit like this, hopefully at least you'll like this version of me. You're just describing me up until a couple of years ago. But like, if I do this right, and then you don't like me, doesn't matter because you didn't like the version that wasn't me. You just didn't like the version that I put on. Because someone who's usually the other side of it, right? So you're people pleasing to try and get people to like you. And they do like you, but they don't like you for you. They like you for how you present and that, you know, you're amicable and whatever else it is. So like, as in where I was coming through from all the values and tying that together is our values are formed from our deepest needs not getting met when we're younger. But what are your main values now? Well, if you express it, it'll probably come through from it, but what do you deeply care about? Honesty. Authenticity. Yeah. Compassion. They're the main three. Honesty, authenticity, and compassion. Yeah, um, You're talking about values, isn't it? How I show up, how I want to show up in the world. What do you deeply care about? Like Azeem, for example, if I lied to you, like, I mean, most people want humans to be trustworthy and all that sort of stuff, but like Azeem, you've mentioned those three. Let's just circle back now to when What did that person got bullied. as in what was the unmet need that you might've had? Well, compassion, definitely Yeah. I mean, if you've got compassion for anxiety, does that not help out quite a bit? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because you know I'm okay. Oh, I'm okay. The world's safe and it's secure and yeah, it's okay. Some people will like me, some won't. That's, that's okay. I mean, you said honesty, like as in, were you being honest there at the time? In what way? Well, I mean, if you're getting bullied and lots of stuff, like as in, if you truly were honest and whatever else it is, isn't that isn't it? Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like it's all, I was terrified it's all anything a hundred percent right. And be my authentic self in any way, shape or form. Yeah. Like I, I was like very actively trying to be exactly who people. perception of what people wanted me to be, there was no authentic self, no honesty, a hundred percent. Is that resonating all your values are? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're literally the things that that person didn't get is what I'm observing. I'm just processing stuff that I'm not going to talk about, that's happened to me in the past, that really aligns with those three things as well. Yeah, and like the attachment stuff comes into it as well. I mean, I'm a relatively new parent, so you sort of do re parenting, so all the stuff from your childhood comes up as well when you have children. You come from talking about your values and how they resonate. Yeah, well, so, uh, and I'm still re toying with this. I'll say it probably quite fluently, but I'm re questioning as to whether they are actually authentically the same now or whether they need to change a little bit. So the three F's, so fun, family, and freedom. are my core values, but I'll elaborate on it. Adventure was my other one. Sorry. Oh, adventure. Well, that makes a lot of sense in regards to your explorer. And that's a natural child curiosity type thing. And, you know, I suppose if you're you'd sort of don't explore. So, so then it's like the person that says yes, yes, yes, yes. They might actually be a thrill seeker because they never get to really explore. And so they, they do it in a certain way or whatever it looks like. So it's sort of psychodynamically fits in. Remember soccer dynamics is. It's opposites. So the person that's like wave hair and lots of stuff that presents like no one cares about them, like they don't care how people perceive them, they really care about how people perceive People like me, and by the way, this is prior to personal development, people like me project very confidently, usually extremely insecure. They need you to like, like them or, you know, think that they've got importance and all sorts of stuff. This is all psych stuff, which I find but let's dive into my value. So fun, family and freedom. So fun. Well, that's kind of like in the world, if you're going to show up in the world, I feel like you might as well give it a good shake of the sauce bottle, right? Have a bit of fun. Like, you know, if we're going to be around you and I, we've got something very much in common. We're both going to end up in some sort of a box or. or get cremated and lots of stuff. So we might as well have some, yeah, I haven't made my decision yet. We got big life choices, but so that's fun, right? So family, well, family means like family, community, connection. So family like, family, people I'm around, that's connection, that's belonging, that's purpose. That's like. Like, like if I don't care about like some of the things that you care about, but if it's important to you, I care about it because it's important to you. So like as in, if you like talking about nuts and bolts and whatever else it is, you know, I'm not naturally that into that, but if you're passionate about it, I care about it because you're passionate about it. And it's funny because I only used to see like if it wasn't important to I just wouldn't see any purpose. And I was like, why do you care about this? I don't care about it. So why do you care about it? I never got the concept. This is how like badly ingrained I was as an ENTJ personality type. I just couldn't understand. If you, if I didn't like it, well then you shouldn't like it because I didn't. It's almost like I never got beyond the psychological development of understanding that there's me and then there's you, and like we're not the same person. Yeah. Um, it's kind of a weird dissociative thing. I don't know if this works. Kind of the difference between compassion and empathy, I guess. You know, you can't actually resonate with why they Yeah. see things the way they see things. That's quite an concept and point you've put across there. And so I suppose where we got fun, family, and then freedom, freedom's like authenticity, self expression. So that's sort of what it means to me. And it's like agency. I think it's important that you can have some impact or influence over where you are in your life. I've got that as a fundamental belief. So like, it doesn't matter who you are. You can have some agency or impact on. Yep. So if you're here, I don't care whether your parents you know. Alcoholics, uh, whatever it is, I think everyone has the ability to improve their circumstance. I mean, from my circumstances, I should literally be an alcoholic or, you know, uh, not just a drunk on drugs, whatever else it is. But I've decided not to go into all the drugs and alcohol, which is typically to avoid the pain and suffering, which is what most people do. And understandably so as well, right? Because a lot of terrible things happen. Um, but yeah, so I think it's really Sorry. You've thrown so much at me, I can't keep up. So, I mean, that's, that's, that's really interesting, right? Because I've always said, you know, people with, uh Alcoholic parents or parents with substance abuse either go each way, either way, they're either completely sober or they're completely, um, uh, drunk, right? So somebody in my family had, you know, substance abuse issues and I've always struggled with controlling my, uh, alcohol intake and stuff like that. It's always been a huge problem. The majority of issues in my life have been directly linked to my alcohol consumption. Um, and then like, I'm, I'm, I've been sober now for six months and my life is unbelievably better. But I just found that so interesting. Like, what do you think about that kind of, you know, analysis from a psychological point of view of people either completely, you know, with alcoholic parents, I, I just see it so much. They're either alcoholics or they're completely sober. Yeah. It's, I'd probably not put enough deep thought into it. I mean, if I was to do it off the cuff, I'd probably think, well, like as in, well, let's play this out. Right. So I've got. Yeah. My father's got bipolar. Um, I've got quite a few family members that have got pretty immense, uh, mental health challenges. And so for me, not drinking and doing drugs was because I saw what I saw as little control that my father had in regards to his circumstances and what's sort of going on. And so I was like, well, I'm not going to allow myself to get out of control because when you take drugs and things like that, then you alter your cognition and your ability to think. Uh, and you might make some poor choices. So, um, that's, you know, my rational sort of reasoning of it anyway. And it's, you know, I don't still drink, but I don't drink in excess and I don't do any drugs. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. Like as in, um, I'm not a saint, but like as, um, you know, that's a few things for me. But I think like what you're talking about, that if the parents an alcoholic, I mean, maybe you sort of see all the bad sides to it. And so then it's almost like. you wanted them to be present. And so just through a psychodynamic lens, right? So just think of everything like life is polarity opposites. Yeah. You got masculine, you got feminine, you got big, you got small, whatever goes up comes down, all that stuff. Right? So if I was a child in that scenario, I'm just playing this out. If I was a child in that scenario, I didn't have a parent that was present. Yeah. So if my parent was an alcoholic, let's say you're an alcoholic, you wouldn't be present. And so I really valued people that are being present. So, cause I didn't get connection. mean, they got connection through alcohol to themselves, maybe, or maybe the connection was disconnection. It was. Look, I can tell you about mine. Mine's disconnection. And sorry to interrupt. Yeah, no, it's good. So my disconnection, right, so the funny thing about being sober is it's just realizing how many issues that I was, um, tampering down. Yeah. And like, I, I, I'm a very frantic personality. I, you know, I, I'm constantly like, Oh, I need to start a business and do this. And I, I start something and go, hold on. You're, you know, CEO of a company. You've got 10 other things going on. This is stupid. Like I'm very frantic. Um, very high energy. And I think I was tampering a lot of that with my drinking and stuff like that. Yeah. Well, it's a way of you processing. Yeah. So, which is Processing it or Well, think about it. Like as in, let's play it out. Or pushing it or what? Like, blocking it out. Well, so if you're doing drugs and alcohol, right? you think less. So when I used to that sort of stuff, it used to be great because I'd just exercise myself because naturally I'm always thinking like five steps ahead. I'm not even thinking one or two, I'm five steps ahead. It's exhausting, right? I think I'm the same thing. Sometimes you just want to chill out and just have a beer and just go like, how good's life? Yeah. You heard of this thing called oxygen? It's great. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like as in just like actually celebrating the moment. I mean, this is something that, I think it's really important to go, okay, hold up. Like as in, you mentioned frantic. I mean, like as in, at the end of the day, you've got a need. Like what are all your needs? And if you start lining out what your needs are, well you need stimulation, right? Is it physical stimulation? Mental? Like as in, emotional? Like what is it? Like do you need connection? Like what are your actual needs and desires? And I think there's a, another guy, I mean it falls out of the value sort of stuff. Michael Mojo. before. He does a whole bunch of values based stuff. And if you imagine your values are like this, so I've got, say, fun, family, and freedom are my values. But if I was to order them, I'd probably go freedom's my top value. I'd probably say family's my second value. And then the third one is fun. Something like that, in that order. fact, right? Um, but if I haven't got my freedom sorted, which is my top value, only once that's full, that bucket's full, can I move to fill up the next cup. So let's say we've got all these cups that are sitting here, right? So, uh, if I want to fill up one, I've got to fill up one before I can fill up the other. So I can't walk, I've got to walk before I can run, yeah? So like as in, let's say, you know, once freedom's my first value. So if that cup's full, now I can then start But until I've got that first one full, I can't go into the next one. So like for example, you needed to work out, all right, well, you know, how do you, You, you've got a racy mind and you've got different thoughts and ideas and you like stimulation. Like this is probably why you like this podcast, right? Different thoughts, ideas. You get to mentally throw around concepts and ideas and you get to intellectually, it's a playground. Yeah. I get to turn my thoughts that are just jumping in my head actually into words and express myself. Yeah. So there's maybe a connection need or a, you might not like articulate like that, but maybe it's actually. Oh, I'm in touch with myself. I mean, I, I've found that since having a child, reflection and journaling has been the single greatest thing I've ever um, I've done it before, but I stopped doing it for a while and I started getting really unhappy and it's because I couldn't actually understand who I was because when you do self reflection, who do you learn about? So, and get in touch with yourself. you know, I don't know. I'm just speculating. I don't know you well enough. Does any of that sort of resonate? It does. And I can tell you the, the, the, you know, there's been a few things that I've kind of used as a solution to that frantic problem that I was dampening with alcohol. Uh, the main one is meditation. I mean, that has been an absolute godsend for me because I'm so frantic. And then. You know, realizing I'm in, I'm frantic or realizing I'm telling a story that I'm not doing enough or realizing I'm telling a story of why I should be angry or that I'm not worthy and just going, hold on. No, no. Your mind is just telling you this story and then being able to dissipate those thoughts and go back into the moment. Like first of all, you do that while you're meditating and then I can catch myself on a regular basis, you know, telling myself a story that the world doesn't see you as enough. So you need to be, you need to start another business or you need to. You know, work more hours and you need to do this. Yeah. And, and, and that's been probably the biggest godsend and journaling is another one because I feel like part of my frantic nature is just saying the same thing in my head 400 times. Like, you know, a lot of that's like negative. And if I actually Is it you saying that? No, it's I just want to pick up your words because it's not you, is it? No, no, no. All our brains. What do you mean? Hold up. Like who's saying it then? Yeah. It's like They're just thoughts, as you were just saying. Yeah, well, I think somebody who doesn't, I don't know where you get it from, but I think somebody who doesn't practice or study meditation probably won't know what we're talking about here. Well, it's, it's, it's good to explore it. Like, as in, if I say pink elephant, your brain says, what pink elephant? Or something like that, right? Like, as in, as humans, we are, I did this course called Landmark Forum, and I've got this thing in there which is called Already Always Listening, or that's what it used to be called. And so there's always something going on. If I say something, your brain's already thinking X, Y and Z and it's like, it's not you actually doing it. We think it's us. Yeah. It's not us. Yeah. It's just whatever's there. That's why I like thoughts are cars. You know, would you, are cars that are driving past, do you get in every single car that drives past you? Yeah. I don't. No, no. I get what you're saying. And so that's why I like, which ones do we want to sit with or not? It's like, Oh, hello. You know, anxiety is coming to the door. Well, we might as well. So, invite it in, but let anxiety know that it's only got a couple of minutes. I've got to go soon. the thought, observing it. So this is the type of stuff, right? And that's what meditation is great for. It comes from, yeah, it comes from awareness. You just need to be aware that that's what's actually happening and be able to pick and choose kind of what emotions you want to sit in and what, uh, what, what, uh, I guess what actually value is valuable to you and what are actually just a detriment to your wellbeing and mental health. Yeah. guess I want to run past you because you're a man who, I don't know, so I write a lot of, um, notes to get, this is another thing that I do to get stuff out of my head. I do a lot of boys notes and stuff like that. And this is one that I wrote to myself the other day and I'm trying to figure out and I'd be very interested in your perspective. Um, business is boring. It's a tool to achieve freedom. What you choose to do with that freedom and the skills that you've acquired during the process is where it becomes interesting. Does that resonate with you at all? I think I can understand where you're coming from. I mean, I there's definitely times that I've thought, Oh, geez, this is the same problem. I've already solved this going in and doing it again. Like, as in that's definitely come through, but like as in, I think businesses are a vehicle for change, I think ultimately, I mean, we won't go too political and all that sort of stuff, but ultimately, but like as in, as far as like making change in the world, like as in, look, if we want to make change from a political lens, like you get yourself into a seat, which is a marginal gets built, and then Luke's name's on it, and it's just like, well hold up, in a business, there's a product or an idea, there's a problem generally, right? And you solve a problem like as in, as a physio, like I don't sell to you like physiotherapy. I sell you freedom and movement and connection you can run and when you can move around and when you can be with friends, like as in, if you couldn't run and move right now, that would probably have an impact on your life, right? So like, what are you actually selling? So I think, ultimately, I think businesses are a vehicle for being able to create the life that you want, which is like what you're sort of saying in the quote, I think. Yes. But I also think that like as in, if you're going to do business. You probably want to have good people around you that you love or care or appreciate. Maybe you don't have to love the people that you're working with, but certainly have good connection with them. I'd say it's probably a positive thing. Um, and I think like ultimately it's a lot of discipline. But that still goes back to A, right? So that's building the life you want and having connection with people in the business. 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, look, at the end of the day, anyone that's done just about anything that's great in life and in the world has probably had a lot of discipline and focus and concentration. And that stuff can be boring. How do you Yeah. So like, for example, I was listening to a book this morning and the author was talking really, really slow and I was really getting a bit annoyed about it. And I was like, it's a concept I'm really interested in. So I got the speed up to 3. 25 times and I've trained myself to be able to listen normally at two and a half but like as in this six and a bit hour books now down to two and a bit hours. And so I'll probably finish it today or tomorrow. Um, I can't process. So no, but like as in. Because I've gone through a lot of psychological concepts and things like that, most books are really telling the same story 10 times. So like as in, once I get the concept of idea, I can move on. Now, if I want to eat a book, you know, like as in, Warren Buffett was writing footnotes or notes that are inside of his book, I would really be interested in seeing those because his insights and ideas are quite useful. But sometimes you're just trying to get the concepts and the ideas. And I think, I suppose what I'm trying to articulate there is it depends on, so I've sort of lost my train of thought there. Um, but you'd like with going through the book, like as in I got through and made that more fun and interesting. So, you know, listening at that pace wasn't fun for me. So I sped it up. I think I got it back. Yeah. Look, it sounds like as you originally discussed your business, you're, you're a lot more attached to the purpose of your business, right? I think my business was created as a lifestyle driver from the get go. Yeah. And I'm actually not connected enough to the purpose and how is this going to make the world a better place? Right. And I think that's part of the problem why I'm in a meeting crisis. So Yeah. That's quite interesting, like as in, why does the world care whether your I don't know, it's not the world, well It does, I mean if it didn't, it wouldn't pay money for product and services or Well yeah, but look, I provide a very good product and service, I'm very proud of what we provide. What does the customer care about? Reliability, um, quality I, I, I've been trying to, well, there, there, what they care about, reliability and quality, right? Uh, well, what, what, what does reliability and quality give that person? As I'm saying the words, they sound boring to me, efficiency, right? Things work. Things operate. Yeah. Well, and when things work, I mean, if everything in your life worked, how would you feel? cause you don't have the effort. Free. Yeah. And what's free mean? Yeah, but what I'm talking about, a lot of my customers are big corporations, you know, it's, I'm too disconnected from it now. Oh, look, I get what you're saying. I mean, I was going towards peace of mind and stuff like that, right? But like, as in, at the end of the day though, right, like as in, say, we're in the healthcare space, I would love to be able to create disability employment opportunities and be able to scale that up. I think that's very meaningful and purposeful. Family members that have got disabilities, I think that would be really cool. I don't know how to do that exactly, but like, that would be quite an awesome challenge. And if you have enough profit and, and all that sort of stuff there, you can now start doing some of those things. Some of those things that are purpose driven, not profit driven. So like almost a triple bottom line, right? Like as in, is your business solely about that? Or what would you add into your business that might add more purpose and Like, I don't know, are there charities? Like, what charities do you care about? Sorry, this was the whole point of this, right? So, Um, yeah, the, the, the freedom and the skills that you've acquired, like what do you, what you do with that is where it becomes interesting. So I'm trying to figure out whether I link to give myself more purpose, whether I link the business to some sort of charity, uh, I, I want, and I think this is actually part of my personal psychology, right? So this is, it's not, not essentially trauma dumping, but I think that there's a part of my psychology because of what I said to you before about those. years where I did things that I'm not proud of. I actually, whether this is true or not, I, I worry that my existence on this planet is a net negative towards what I would call, uh, I don't, I don't know what you think about morality. We're going to get real deep here. Oh, this is philosophy. I love this. Let's go. I'm, I'm an atheist. I'm, I've always been secular, which I'd love, secular, which I'd love to talk to you about meaning and religion if we have time. Morality for me is, you know, let's say if you're on a graph, people who aren't watching won't see this. the top right corner, we're going to call it good, which is well being for all conscious creatures. On the bottom left, we're going to call it bad, which is suffering for all conscious creatures. Maybe those words aren't perfect, right? But I want my life to be a net moving. on this graph this way and I worry that currently I'm negative because of some of the things I've done in my past, which I'm not going to dive into, but I want to shift those balances in a big way and I don't think my vehicle with what we're currently doing is a meaning to do that. I think maybe we make things like maybe it is through peace of mind and you know, I'm hiring an engineer. I want to do innovation and actually that innovation, my industry equals um, um. better outcomes for, uh, climate change, stuff like that, but I'm not really deeply connected to those. So with my freedom and with my, um, skills that I've acquired, I want to figure out, and this, this might be a five to 10 year process, but I want to, I want to know how to move my life. So when I get to the end, right, what do people say about me? I did something that actually moved people. humankind or, or the, I made the world a better place and, and this is what, I haven't figured this out. I'm doing this in real time, but that's where I'm at. And that's what the meaning crosses for me is. Oh, I mean, it's quite significant. Sounds like the big underlying thing at the end of the day, I think Parney actually that said it, uh, your meaning in your life is just literally your attitude to whatever Okay. just your attitude that you're doing. Mm-hmm And if we wanna go from a philosophical standpoint, like in philosophy,'cause I grabbed up Philosophy for Dummies.'cause where do you start when you're starting in a journey, you probably go to the Dummies version. So I just read a lot of heavy stuff. I don't understand. But Well, I mean, I, I started going through it and I was like, oh, like as in, I was trying to work out why, why am I here? Why does it matter whether Trevor's here or not? Does it Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. And it was going through in regards to so some of that is actually built up and maybe it's best explained through Ikigai. I think it's called. Have you heard of Ikigai? The word sounds familiar, but I have no idea what it's related to. Essentially like what you love doing, uh, what the world values and something like that. It's like a combination. There's three things and I've forgotten one. But essentially it's about doing something that matters, right? So like healthcare naturally by itself. You can understand it's like a purposeful industry, right? Yeah. So like as in, if I help someone that's got cerebral palsy or Parkinson's and they struggle moving and now they can get out into the society, they're connected, they, they feel like they're engaged. That's very purposeful. I can hear the connection when you're talking about it, which I don't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so that's purposeful in and of itself. But like as in, what problem can I solve that the world cares about? Like as in, not just me, like the world, right? Now, maybe, and I'm not going to give advice, whatever else it is about, you know, maybe the business you've got is the vehicle. Maybe it's not like, but I think unpacking a few things from what you said, I look at it probably very differently to what you said. I think that there's two things. There's one thing that is like, what does your business do? And is that purposeful or meaningful? And does that matter to you? That's one thing, right? Completely separate thing is, is when you've started your business, lots of stuff, and this is a recent revelation Did you pick every job that you wanted? So let's just go through your own. So you're now an employee in your business, yeah? You've just appointed you. Well done. Um, so, Did you pick the career path and trajectory of every single job that you went through? As in my roles within the business? Yep. Based upon your own personal wants and needs. Sure, you're a business owner, surely. No, no, no. No, you don't, right. And I've done the exact same thing. I fell into what I thought was required of me. Because it would be efficient and effective and have the most impact on the organisation. Yes. So whose needs were you I'll tell you why I'm hesitating. I mean, the organization, I'm assuming is the answer. Well, I mean, yes. It depends. Like, am I serving my own personal need because I need the organization to succeed? Well, maybe. I mean, maybe you need the organization to keep some story and narrative that you've got going on. I mean, as humans, we've got a narrative for that's as well. But like, as in, I think it's really fascinating around art. Well, if you were to sculpt your own role. And I'm in a situation like this right now actually. If you were to scope your own role, would it be what you're doing now? In the Yes or no? It's either going to be a yes No. okay. What do you care about? So this is the whole meaning, right? In my life? So like as in, so this is when you do motivation mapping. There's nine core drivers. And this is what I find really interesting. So someone who's in sales, actually really cares about status and they care about money, and they, uh, care about progress and all that sort of stuff, right? But like, as in, for example, people that are like OTs generally mostly care about connection and purpose and those sorts of things. So it's like, well, what do you do that gives you that? Yeah. So this is a different conversation around money. My crisis I actually don't know. So what we say in the Well, so like, what gives you, when you have felt lit up inside, what were you doing? No, no, no. Well, this is the thing. I don't know because I thought all of those There's been moments though. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. You've had moments in your life where you felt not crap. Um, so a conversation I had with, uh, somebody I respect yesterday was fantastic. And, you know, because, because Adventure, Um, by adventure, I mean exploring, you know, interesting things. Um, So like ideas or are you enjoying this? Is this fun? Is this not fun? Yeah, I love this. So this is, that's what I was saying about yesterday. I had a conversation with somebody and you know, it was meant to be kind of a business direction and it just turned into a three hour conversation about the meaning of life. I really loved that. Right. And What did you get out of that? What did I get out of the conversation I had yesterday? Clarity. Okay. Um, I can't think of the word, but like some sense of, yeah, clarity. interesting. Or, or belonging, right? So, so, so, I, so, you know, we're in EO, right? But, um, and I feel like over the last, 12 to 18 months, I have, my brain has made a switch from going, you need to make money so people think, they think you're worthy. And for some reason, um, that has dissipated and like, I feel like I am lost. Because I actually don't know what that drives us. That's why this conversation is so valuable, right? I love it. And so that conversation yesterday, why was that valuable? Because I figured out a lot of insights. And I also was talking to somebody that I could genuinely relate to. Because a lot of the, like I have these conversations with some people and their eyes glaze over. Or, or they, they go things like, you know, like I've got a big story that I've told a thousand times about me not buying a Rolex because that's just feeding, I guess, my ego and some, and a lot of people are like, Oh no, no, no, you buy a Rolex because you want to feel good and you want to feel proud of that you've earned, you know, that you've earned that. And I go, well, that we just have different intuitions because that, that, that means nothing to me. And I just feel like I'm lost because I don't know what means anything to me. This is pretty deep. Can I go somewhere? Hit me. The last, what is it, EO, you've been 18 months or something like that? Me, uh, two and a half years. Two and a half safe did you feel prior to And what about now? I haven't felt safe up until the last three to six months of my life. I've always, I haven't felt safe up until the last, you know, three. Um, I've been doing it for six months of my life. because I feel like I'm not good enough. I feel like the world, I'm not worthy to be in this world and to be loved. yeah, yeah. That's, that's really common, right? Trauma and other different things. And once again, a lot of this is psychology if you want to be really clear in regards to it, but like as in, not trained yet. I've got a few quals, but I'm not actually formally a psychologist or anything. I just didn't want to be clear about that. But like, so. What, what, uh, emotions are, what are your emotions that you've been used to on your mind, stress other things. What, what are your emotions? Right. Um, are the normal ones still there? Definitely stress. Yep. Um, Oh, are they? And are they there now? Are they there at the moment? Stress. Yes. No, it's not. It was there and it's not there now. Ah, hold up. So it's not familiar to feel. On a day to day, right now on a day to day basis. Oh, like I see. So you said you're lost as in you're not stressed now. Yeah. So is it familiar or unfamiliar to not feel stressed? Very unfamiliar. Right. Okay. So is that a level of uncertainty potentially? Yes. Right. you can dive back in and start another business and what's that going to predictably give you? Stress. So what if you actually are addicted, just addicted to a different drug? Yeah, yeah. Let me introduce you to cortisol. Stress. Yeah, yeah. So, you know what I mean? So like I said, and I'm, I've been, I'm actually working with this at the moment. Cause I think I'm addicted to like adrenaline and cortisol and lots of stuff. And so it's very unnatural wind back. And it's like, I get certain things from it, but I'm trying to work out what do I like and what do I not like? So, like, for example, I'm trying to buy a hack myself and do some things at the moment as far as checking in and having my watch or whatever it looks like start vibrating when my heart rate gets too high because if you're sitting, if your heart rate goes up by about 25%, it's indicative of stress, right? Yep. What are you and I bad at? Uh. Tell me how you feel. Being not stressed. Well, how do you feel right now? If you and I do this, I bet you will find this very hard. Right now? Yeah, how we feel? Happy. Comfortable. Um, Connected. This is quite interesting because like, we typically talk, you notice that even in our whole conversation, if you look it back and put it through an AI, A lot of it's always about outcomes and results. It's never typically about, Oh, but I feel this way. Yeah, okay. Do you, do you notice that? Yeah, yeah. Like I do this all the time as well. So like for me to connect in and actually go, you know doesn't feel right. as a business owner, this is kind of coming back to the whole, where are you in the business and all that sort of stuff. Well, I think ultimately if we were employees, we wouldn't choose various different roles. And that's why I'm studying uni. I'm going back to uni and studying psychology. I'm doing that out of interest and that's just for me. Is it going to give us a financial benefit? I couldn't whether it does or not. I'm going to do that for me. That's the first time I've made a decision in the business in the last, what, five and a bit years. That's been based upon what my desires are because I'm, at the end of the day, still an employee or I'm still a stakeholder that's important in this organization. so how, yeah, but it sounds like you've made transition from obsession over, I guess, wealth creation and now you're actually trying to do something. I'm talking about my own journey, but you, now you're trying to do something with a psychology degree. You're trying to do that for yourself, right? Well, I've always loved psychology ever since I was, I've been chasing habits and behaviors and all that sort of stuff since I was, I don't know, 16 or something like that. Like I said, I looked at a lot of screwed up things in my life and I'm like, you know what, what's the one thing difference here? And I was like, habits and behaviors, if you can learn that, like I am and behaviors. Um, now not in all times, I make mistakes just like everyone else does, but Charles Duhigg, The Power of a Habit, great book, one of my favorites. Yeah. And it just went through, they went through a story in regards to, have you heard the book or of a Habit, Charles Duhigg? No, no, no, no. They go through an example of Starbucks and how they've got a training program and how it instills resilience. And essentially there was this guy, I don't know his name, but let's say Bob James, James goes in. mum's about to die in hospital and goes into the hospital and essentially says that it's after hours and so the protocol is that you Um, mum's on deathbed and all that sort of stuff. Goes in and essentially is aggressive with the staff. The staff say, no, you gotta get out, come back tomorrow. Lo and behold, mum dies overnight and lots of stuff. And so he's very distraught and traumatized. Um, but what was missing for James was if James could have actually articulated and, and been in touch with his emotions and said, Hey, Luke, like, you know, I appreciate that. Like, it's not hospital policy in regards to saying, so my on her last, know, anything you could do to help would just mean so much. Now, if he could come up with those words, his life would have his mum. And for whatever reason, I mean, like, despite the fact that I'm very task focused, I actually incredibly emotionally so much about people, like too much almost, right? and it's like in that situation, it's just like really resonated with me. I'm like, shit, I am that person, I'm not going to be in those situation and that circumstance. And now I'm going to do that is I'm going to learn a thing about habits and behaviors and I'm going to just keep working on that. And I'll make something of myself and hopefully make a positive difference with other people. And so that's always been interesting for me, the whole psychology side of seeing how I can progress and that type of stuff. So I mean, like, look, yes, there's been a whole journey there, but like I was in allied health physio, I had a knee injury. That's why I became a physio. That was a pretty boring story. I thought the physio I was seeing. It was a bit rubbish and I'd be better, so that's why I did physio. Um, but like I was in, I worked out probably in my second year in uni that I was more interested in psych than I was in anything else. And I just kept doing what society said. Well, you start a degree. All right. Well, it's a long way back now if I and can't really be bothered. I'm this far in and I might as well finish. So I've got to have something, which is all society Society couldn't give two shits about me. Unless I give a shit about me. Nothing else is going to happen. I think some stuff I've been listening to recently with Jordan Peterson has been really insightful. I don't know if you've listened to his stuff at all. A little bit. He's got a lot of material out there. He's got like 500 odd episodes. And it's dense. It's really dense. Yeah. And then he's got his lectures and his books and he's got a lot. Yeah. And he's like, you're talking about good and bad. Like he did a whole bunch of stuff on religion, other people talk about because he said to understand morality, you've got to understand good and bad, which, purpose and meaning like religion, like was actually the bedrock for society for so long, and it actually kept it really nice for a while now there's been many problems with religion and that as well, but like religion often comes with humility, right? So let's say if we say a prayer right now that, you know, I wanna find the purpose and meaning my life. Well that means you've gotta now be humble enough Yeah. To do what it takes to get the answer to that. So you're gonna do self discovery and you're gonna do a whole lot of stuff. And so if the answer comes back in that you need to do X, Y, and Z, you might not feel like doing it Luke. But are you going to do the work? Because if you want to ask for what it is that you want, you better be willing to do what it takes to get it. Have you got a hard hour or anything? Uh, I've got probably we dive into religion real quick? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, cool. So, I'll tell you about my journey on religion, and, you know, I think you'll be quite insightful, and I'd love to get your reaction. So, this is my journey for religion. because I was very, I don't know, I would say alone in my late teens, I, the new atheist movement was kind of going on at the time you had the, are you familiar with, you know, the four horsemen of the eight, all that kind of stuff. I was really obsessed with all that. And I, I learned so much about kind of the negative aspect of dogmatism, um, organized religion and stuff like that. And being young, you're looking for some sort of, uh, I guess religion. well, belonging problem. Belonging. Right. And mine happened to be kind of that atheist movement, anti-D dogmatism, anti organized religion. And um, you know, that led to a lot of, uh, nihilism within me. Right. I've got a big tattoo on my chest that I'll show you one day. Uh, that says, Oh God, uh, nobody belongs anywhere and nobody exists on purpose. Everyone's going to die. That's how much of a nihilist I am, right? I've got Italian on my chest. It's hilarious. But I was having a conversation with a, with a woman I know recently, right? And she gets a lot of meaning and passion out of her religion. Yeah. And, you know, I'm coming to the point where obviously because I'm in the middle of a meeting crisis going on, like I'm missing something, something's missing there now, there's a whole bunch of philosophy that I've read on, you know, secular morality and what I was speaking to you, you know, before about, you know, with the wellbeing versus suffering and stuff like that. Um, I've been doing a lot of, like I said, I do a lot of meditation, um, I've been looking more and more into, into Buddha Buddhism and there's a secular Buddhism movement. Um, I just wanted to get your, your kind of aspect on, on how, on where, how you see religion in society and how it's affected your personal life because I'm trying to figure that out for myself. It's, it's interesting. I mean, I wouldn't say my family's been overly my, Nana was Christian and I my dad identifies as stuff like that as well. I was predominantly raised by my dad. Um, my mom left when I was pretty young. Uh, but yeah, like I said, I identify as being Christian. Look. Can I go through the ins and outs in regards to, you know, I know what the Bible and a things say, like as in, I think ultimately the Bible is personal development. Um, I think it's really good personal development if you actually look at it and take the lessons that are out of it in regards to humility. That's such a hard thing because like, Oh, I mean like it's complex. I'm not saying it's simple, right? And I think Jordan Peterson distilled it probably as well as I've heard it said in regards to, he sort of says like, look, am I, Am I religious or anything else like that? Or does God exist? And he's like, I act as if I behave as if God does exist. But the problem with that is, if you're able to do that, sure. But there's a whole young generation that if you go, let's become a Christian nation or whatever that he wants to do, there's a whole bunch of up and coming 18 year olds like me that are going to be like, no, there's logical. I mean, they're 100 percent and I suppose the thing is, is that, am I the center of the universe? No. And this actually comes back to something that was really meaningful to me for a long while. When I was playing cricket, so I played semi professional cricket, I was okay at but I was, you know, good enough to play A grade district cricket and go over the world and play a few times there as well. And one of the things that I found really challenging, and it's actually probably why I didn't progress further, um, along with cricket was I had so much self doubt because there's me. There's the bowler, the cricket ball comes down and I either hit it or I don't hit it and I do well or I don't do well, that's a batter, right? Uh, and so what I sort of Hillsong Worship. now if you look them up, it's and they're like quite uplifting and lots of if you look at a lot of the science and all that because interesting paralleling the science with religion and stuff like that as well because it's quite fascinating. The music's actually at certain beats and lots of stuff which is uplifting and so it does give you certain feelings and all that. So even if you remove the religious aspect from it, from a scientific standpoint, a lot of this stuff stands up, right? Um, now I'm not going to go talking about water moving and blah, blah, blah, but you know, I'm not going to comment on that stuff that I'm not really that interested in it to be honest. I'm more interested in what gives you utility or what gives you meaning in your life. And so if I feel like I'm just a piece of flesh and meat and I'm just here to serve my own wants and needs, Yeah. Well, you're describing my 20s. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so I'm like, that's pretty sad. And then I did the landmark forum, which I was telling you about, which is another course. And then they go through a thing and given away a bit of it is like life is empty and meaningless empty and meaningless that it's empty Ever heard that before? No. So imagine your life is this cup and you've got a whole lot of and that's the meaning of your life. Have all the tissues you put in there, are they really meaningful ones and are they the right ones? Have you got some tissues in there that should probably come Does it matter? Well, I mean, like, let's say, like, does it matter if you're a good dad? Like, who cares? Well, okay. Does it matter? Well, no. Well, it matters to you. It did. No. Yes, it does. Right. So if you asked me this when I was in my nihilistic period, I would say, no, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. But. Yeah, it matters. Yes. It's subjectively matters. Right. Well, this is important because landmark, if you look into it, thing called ontology. Have you ever heard of ontology? Yeah. I don't know much about it. It's a study of what's real. Yeah. So what's real? Are we real? Yes. You sure? I mean, is that a chair or what, what are you sitting on? Uh, yeah, sure. Well, I mean, subjectively, we call that a chair. Objectively, of other things, which we've also put a name onto, right? And what's the difference between, say, you and I rolling down a hill and also, uh, like a, an animal rolling down the What would you and I do differently that the Oh, shit, we're going really quick. And what's going on here? We add all this subjective meaning to it, right? Yeah, we've got language. It's way, way beyond what other, you know, creatures have, right? Yeah. So we've got subjective and objective subjective, you know, your experience, my experience, So like, you and I can disagree and you are right and I am right in your own and perspective. Yep. Yeah. And then you've got objective reality, which is like, you know, we can measure stuff. it right. Like as in, there's how many mils of water in this glass, whatever it is. So If you go through that lens, if life's empty and meaningless, and it's empty and meaningless, it's empty and don't you just add meaning to your life? the tissues back in. Oh, it means that, you know, maybe I'm a good person And, you know, if I'm, if I exercise, you know, that means that, you know, I feel good and that's a good thing. So let's just put in, why don't you put that in? I mean, we get taught all this crap stuff all the Like, you know, oh, you're not good enough and this and that. Why don't we put things that are meaningful in there? Why are we so allergic to happiness and being fulfilled? Is there, is there a reason for that? Yeah, well, I look now, I feel like now you're speaking my language. You're putting on a lot better than I did. But now you're speaking my language. I mean, this, that's how I kind of feel about it. And I think that's, um. I think it's what I struggled with deeply and why I felt so lost for so much of my life. Yeah, a good mate of mine, Jimmy, um, he, he's religious and I've got so much respect for him. I've got quite a few, um, religious friends. Uh, and yeah, like, as you know, I was just like, well, what about this? Like, as in there's all this horrible stuff in the world. How can you explain that? And I was like, you know, cause I was just like, come Like, as in you believe X, Y, and Z, this is going on. Um, but like I said, I think ultimately if it gives them purpose and meaning in their life, like who am I to take that away? Like that's really arrogant of me to then say, you know, like, as you know, I might have my own beliefs and I've got their own. I think like it warms your heart, kudos. I completely agree. And I completely agree. And that's what I was saying. Like when I hear somebody else speak about it, I can tell that their Christianity gives them meaning and I think that's awesome for them. Yeah. But I just don't have that in me. Like I don't think I can find that meaning. So like a year back, I have to be putting tissues. I have to try to figure out what, what that's going to be for me. Oh, potentially. I mean, I'd be very curious about you going through all your beliefs you have around it. So have you ever done like as in belief inventory? No. So you can literally like, what do you believe? You believe a few things in life. do you believe? As in what? Like big picture? Whatever you want. You believe things, right? Mmm. Am I in the room here? Do you believe that? I do believe that, yeah. What about some more meaningful things? What, what do you believe? I believe that my happiness comes from my mental health, not from acquiring Um, like, this is hard. I believe a million things. Oh, but like as in, you know, I believe being a good father is important. Yeah, I believe, I do. Yeah, alright, well then what constitutes that and how do you know that's true? Because So, so at the core of this conversation is my morality right? And everything that gives me meaning in my life, like I think if I'm a good father and husband, that makes the world a better place because my, my, my kids are gonna have more wellbeing within their life, right? My wife is going to have more wellbeing, it's going to lead to them being more productive people in society and, and, and passing on more wellbeing to other people. So at the core of all my beliefs and meaning things like being better husband and father is that morality graph that I was kind of trying to articulate before. Fantastic. Yeah. That's, that's, that's good though. It is. Oh, it is. Because you know what good things are. Yeah. And you know what bad things are. Yeah. So it's moving conscious beings away from suffering and that is what I have come up with in the last few years and it works for me. That's the tissue. I think that's awesome. Yeah. Like how good is that? Yeah. Like I love this because it's like if you act as if that person already knows the answer, they do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The core that is, I guess, objectively meaningless, but it doesn't really matter. It means, is that subjectively meaningful to me? Does that make any sense? Absolutely. I mean, so do you, like, depends on what you're trying to do. Are you trying to find the meaning of life to meaningful to everyone else? Or does it just need to matter to you? If I like business, does it matter to my wife? It depends whether that affects her life, but no, no, it doesn't. Yeah. But like if it warms my cup and I'm happy with that, is that cool? Yeah, that's cool. So I think that matter to you. Yeah. But we think like, cause we're social beings. We're like, hold up, come and give me some validation. Like, can I knock on your door and you give us some validation? Is that cool? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, it doesn't have to resonate with other people. Like we're all different in this world. We got like, what, 7 billion of us. Like we've got a few different Trevor Keane, what a fantastic conversation. I can't express how much I enjoyed that. Not a worry at all. Thanks a lot for the time, Luke. Thanks for coming on.