#13 Redefining Success in Business and Life with Brian Njuguna

In this deeply human and wide-ranging conversation, Luke sits down with Brian Njuguna to explore his incredible journey—from growing up in Kenya to practicing law in remote South Australia, and eventually founding one of the country’s most innovative mental health practices.

Brian shares stories of sleeping in creek beds to represent Aboriginal clients, unpacking systemic injustices, and learning the hard way how business success can pull you away from the very reasons you started. They dive into purpose, burnout, fatherhood, radicalisation prevention, VR therapy, and why Western culture might be getting happiness all wrong.

This episode is a masterclass in identity, legacy, leadership, and redefining success on your own terms.

Key Takeaways:

• Naming traditions in Kenyan families and cultural identity
• The reality of remote legal work in Australia’s outback
• Mental health struggles that redirected Brian’s career
• Starting a purpose-led business—and how it nearly broke him
• VR therapy as a powerful new tool for healing
• Being a present father while running multiple companies
• Understanding the cost of chasing the next goalpost

About the guest:

Brian Njuguna is a former criminal lawyer who transitioned into the mental health space after overcoming his own challenges with anxiety and depression. He is now the Director of two nationally recognised, award-winning organisations: BCOGNITIVE, known for its inclusive workplace programs, and Virtual Reality Therapy Australia, which brings cutting-edge therapeutic tools to regional and remote communities. Brian is also the founder of the Men’s Mental Health Gala and an NDIS business growth coach, passionate about building accessible, innovative support systems and helping other organisations thrive in the mental health sector.

ABOUT CURIOUS AF PODCAST

Curious AF is the evolution of what started as The Hard Stuff Podcast. Initially focused on guests who’d done hard things—ultra marathons, building businesses, overcoming personal challenges—it’s now becoming a broader platform to explore anything and everything I’m genuinely curious about.
The new direction is more personal and wide-ranging. I want it to feel like a space where I can follow my curiosity and have real conversations with people who inspire, challenge, or fascinate me.

For further information, contact:
Podcast Host - Luke Biermann
General Inquiries: hello@curiousaf.com.au
Instagram: @curiousaf.podcast

Transcript

# Brian Njuguna

[00:00:00] 

**Luke:** Brian, I'm not even gonna try to attempt to say your last name. How do you say your last name? 

**Brian:** Well, that's a story for different days. So gon is my middle name. 

**Luke:** that's the, so that's my name. Okay. So my 

**Brian:** last name is actually gogi. Okay. Which is my dad's name.

**Brian:** Okay. So culturally, you know, your boys are named after your dad. Actually, the kids are named after the dad. So my always, 

**Luke:** Like do you just have generations of kids with the same name? 

**Brian:** So my mom, my dad's side, there's war, there's a few kids. There's about 18, 21 kids on my dad's side. So two wives and 

**Luke:** all.

**Luke:** Hold on. What? Hold on. Stop. Your dad has 21 kids, is that No, no. 

**Brian:** 21 brothers. Okay. 20 brothers and sisters. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** And generationally, each fast born male is called Joy Free one. Bogo. Gogi. Wow. Joy Free [00:01:00] one bogo. So that's the name. So all fast born males in my family. So from my dad's side. All fast born males are joy free Wi Bogo.

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** So, and you know the shot is Jeff. 

**Luke:** So you changed it when you come to Australia? 

**Brian:** No, no, it's 'cause I'm the last born. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** But, so my brother is Joy free Wi Bogo Jeff. So each family that has a fast born male, they have a Jeff. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** But 'cause I'm the last one, so my last name Gogi is my dad's name. So when people ask me what's, what are your names, they usually just say Brian Joa.

**Brian:** So what are your full names? Brian Joa gogi. 

**Luke:** So is Brian given to your birth or is that Yeah. 

**Brian:** Yeah. So Kenya English Colony. Yep. So most, if not all have an English fast name. 

**Luke:** So my dad is an immigrant from Germany. Yeah. His name was. It's spelled UWEU, but it's pronounced Uve. Okay. And he just changed it.

**Luke:** cause everyone calls him Youi you know, he didn't like that [00:02:00] nobody could say so he just changed it to Don. 

**Brian:** because everyone asks me about Brian. 

**Brian:** With my kids, I didn't give them English names. So my kids my wife is Lebanese, so my kids are half Kenyan, half Lebanese.

**Brian:** She's half Syrian. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** So my first born son, his name is Charbel. Okay. And then his middle name is Nga. 

**Brian:** His last name is my name, which is, 

**Luke:** yeah. 

**Brian:** Then the second born is Raphael, which is his name, which is a Lebanese equivalent, or the Lebanese name. Then Ken, which is a Kenyan name, and then his last name Joo.

**Brian:** And the last born is Ika Joo. 

**Luke:** See my, my wife's family like that. My wife's Croatian. Mm-hmm. And her family's like that. We're not we just call our kids Australian names, but like all her cousins, they all name their kids like, you know, Mar Marco. Like, they're all very stick with the, 

**Brian:** I think it's also the, for me it was a question of identity.

**Brian:** You know, you have these kids who are half Kenyan, half Lebanese, [00:03:00] Syrian. How do they identify? They're Australian. Born in, born and bred 

**Luke:** in Australia. 

**Brian:** Yeah. Mom's Australian. Yeah. But she's Lebanese Australian. 

**Brian:** So I was just like, you know what? It is what it is. 

**Luke:** Yeah. Interesting. So, where'd you grow up, 

**Brian:** Kenya?

**Brian:** Born and raised. Spent all my life up until I migrated to Australia in oh seven. 

**Luke:** Okay. So 

**Brian:** I've been here now 18 years. 

**Luke:** How old were you in oh 7 

**Brian:** 21. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** Came to study. So it was one of those educational migrants. 

**Luke:** Interesting. And was the plan just to come forward, study and go back to 

**Brian:** Yeah, the plan was that had a scholarship from the Kenyan government to study came.

**Brian:** Oh wow. Yeah. Came in then. But once you finish your law degree, cause I did a bachelor's of, I did a double degree law and international studies, but once you finish that, for you to become a lawyer, you must go through accreditation. So the Law Society of South Australia, that was another six months to get it to happen.

**Brian:** Then once you have that, then you're eligible to apply for permanent residency. So it's like, you know, I get some experience work as a [00:04:00] lawyer, wanna go back home, I wanna change things. I wanna not, I say change, I wanna bring in this new idea, this different way of how the laws apply. 'cause Austral and Kenya are similar.

**Brian:** They're both commonwealth. 

**Luke:** They are. Okay. That's what I was gonna ask. 'cause I've got a friend whose partner's a lawyer. And they went over to actually studied in Australia and then they went over to England. But they were, or originally wanted to go to New York, but because they weren't part of the Commonwealth, there wasn't much of a transition.

**Luke:** So Kenya's part of the Commonwealth is it? It is. Okay. 

**Brian:** You still have to do a little bit more study. Yep. So once I kind of figured all that out, I was like, I'll get a bit of work experience while I'm waiting for my permanent residency. And I ended up going to Port Augusta. So that's why I started my law career.

**Brian:** I've been in Port Augusta. I did that for two years. Port Augusta? I did, I was working for the Aboriginal Legal Rights Movement rn. I did two years and I did Port [00:05:00] Augusta, port Kuba pd and the EPIs. Wow. That wow. And the, 

**Luke:** what was the last one, sorry? Epi 

**Brian:** Y. So the Ang people in Jja lands. Okay. And that is like, you literally leave Port Augusta on Saturday.

**Brian:** You drive. Five and a half hours, six hours to Cober pd, sleep in Cuba, wake up in the morning, 6:00 AM 7:00 AM drive all the way down past the NT border, or right close to the NT border and take a left. 

**Luke:** Yeah, that's 

**Brian:** like six, eight hours. Man. You take a left and then you drive another six hours, four and a half hours, and then you camp out so you sleep in a creek bed.

**Brian:** Well, at at least that's what my experience was in 2011. Things might have changed. 

**Luke:** Yeah. I mean you, so my childhood was spent, my, my parents were very into camping, so my childhood was spent driving around Australia, sleeping in a tent. So I know what a [00:06:00] lot of those places are like. And I still spend a lot of time in Port Augusta Poppi Alfa work.

**Luke:** So, and this 

**Brian:** was wild, like, you know, this was the Aboriginal Legal Rights Movement, LRM and Legal Aid South Australia. So you wouldn't be alone. LRM would have our field officer with us aboriginal field officer. Legal aid didn't have one at the time. I'm not even sure if they still do the circuit, but you'd literally sleep in a creek bed, and at least in 2011, you'd wake up and they'd camo footprints.

**Brian:** There'd be horse footprints like you are in, in it. 

**Luke:** That's so cool. And 

**Brian:** then you wake up in the morning, do your French bath. You'd never wear a suit, but it'd still be, you know, in ca casual, formal. Yeah. You still have your clothes to shoes, your slacks and a shot, a short sleeve shirt, and then you jump into the community.

**Luke:** Yeah. Right. And you've just come down and so what were you doing? So criminal law. Yeah. Yeah. But what, so what did your day kind of persist of? [00:07:00] 

**Brian:** Oh man. Everything. So you'd start on the list and they'd be. 80, a hundred people on the list, all with different criminal charges, most minor, you know, driving related offense.

**Brian:** Driving with. Okay. And so, and this was, 

**Luke:** yep. And the, so the government was funding, but this was legal aid, so you were helping Yeah, so 

**Brian:** LRM is like legal aid, but specializing with Aboriginal. Gotcha. Andres Strait Island clients. So literally a CRE lawyer up there. And I have stories. What experience about that For days?

**Brian:** Like it was an eyeopener. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** So two years there, then I went to Sydney. 

**Luke:** Yep. Quite a different, yeah. Okay. Pardon a different environment. 

**Brian:** It was, so the, the cases tended to be generally more serious. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** Because now you're at West Sydney. 

**Luke:** Yeah. It is not drink driving. It's. 

**Brian:** During driving is always on the court list.

**Brian:** Yeah. There's always [00:08:00] somebody out there. There shouldn't be, but there's always somebody driving without a license, driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs. That is it. Yeah. Well, he, 

**Luke:** he might've defended me when I was 2021, 

**Brian:** but then now you also have the serious offenses. Yeah. You know, drug trafficking, sex assaults, and I, in, in Parramatta I was part of a team that did Parramatta Roit Bow St.

**Brian:** Mary's, Liverpool, and I was born in Liverpool. This is twenty twelve, twenty thirteen now. Yeah. And it was, it was, honestly, I've been very fortunate, some of my best experiences. 

**Luke:** Yeah. So I, I grew up in Liverpool, not grew up, I, I lived there till I was like four or five years old, and I went there recently for the first time in, you know, 30 years.

**Luke:** And I was like, this place is horrible. Not horrible is a bad word, but it's, it's rough. 

**Brian:** and when did you go back? 

**Luke:** Like last year. 

**Brian:** Really? 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** And I also saw it from a different light, but I came in from like a legal acumen, like, you [00:09:00] know, I, I was in, in compared to practicing up in Epi Wallan versus in Sydney.

**Luke:** It's, it's 

**Brian:** a different level. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** Offenses are more serious. The team was a lot bigger, but it was a lot more cohesive. Like we had a really good group of really smart lawyers. 

**Luke:** Yeah. I mean, I imagine that'd be amazing experience, like diving directly into the deep end. 

**Brian:** And then, you know, Madrid for example, was it called ha there was a show, Hazo?

**Brian:** Yeah. Yeah. And we had three of my clients, like three of my clients who were in there series. 

**Luke:** Oh, really? 

**Brian:** And 

**Luke:** or like there were actors in the series, you remember it was an 

**Brian:** acting person? 

**Luke:** Oh yeah. It was, reality 

**Brian:** was, as, you know, as good as reality TV can get. And that was absolutely intense. I miss it with every fiber.

**Brian:** Oh really? Of my being. What do 

**Luke:** you miss? The chaos, the like, [00:10:00] real 

**Brian:** change. Okay. So like the Aboriginal legal rights in South Australia, the, in New South Wales, it's Aboriginal Legal Services, so a LS and a L S's take on law is that they do a lot of change based advocacy. So they find an issue and then they fight that all the way to the high court.

**Brian:** Like they literally change the way policing and laws applied. So you identify an issue and, there already a few misconceptions about how police interact with people. There's all this information out there, but now you, you are in it and you see it. 'cause there's this preconceived idea that police are bad and that they target people.

**Brian:** You know, there's hundreds and hundreds of police officers in any given state, if not thousands. But then you'd see a pattern because you'd be in a small office with 11, 12 lawyers solely and exclusively practicing criminal law. And you are all together, you are all bonded, you're all boys. You [00:11:00] talk and you'd identify 10 or 12 police officers whose names continuously featured.

**Luke:** Oh, wow. So if anybody's going to actually physically see the pattern, it's gonna be you. It's 

**Brian:** a lawyers, but actually no, it's a client who already see it because you, first thing you do is that you take instructions from your client. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** And they'd be like, yeah man. That Luke guy. Yeah. That Bryan police officer, this is what he did.

**Brian:** And then that just becomes one story. Yeah. So that, and then you have, 

**Luke:** that's, that's an anecdote. And then if you, you have 20 people that week. Oh wow. And 

**Brian:** they're like, yeah, Luke and Brown. Luke and Brown. Luke and Brown. Look and brown. And then there's a pattern. So then now it becomes, as a lawyer, then you get this added responsibility of, okay, I've just seen Luke's name on this statement of fact.

**Brian:** How true is it? ' cause thousands of police officers. Why is it that only a few keep appearing? And why is it that you're always hearing the same story? 

**Luke:** So what do you do? He was 

**Brian:** aggressive. So then you just start, you start asking for the evidence. You always ask for the evidence, [00:12:00] especially if they're pleading not guilty, but you start not digging deeper and deeper and finding all these patterns.

**Brian:** Why is it that there's only five police officers who charge people with resist arrest and continuously, not just that one resist in a year or in two? What are the deescalation procedures? Like, what are you guys doing that's different to all the other police officers that only you are getting assaulted and then you slowly build on it?

**Brian:** That was amazing. Then I shifted to Canberra. 

**Luke:** Well, wait, how does that end? So are you working with the police or are you like, 

**Brian:** cream is, cream is tricky. At least my experience with it was that it was tricky because you're not, you're all working towards the same goal as a lawyer. Your primary responsibility is to the court.

**Brian:** Then you have the profession, then the client. So I cannot stand before any judicial member and state a fact that is not true. But then at the same time, [00:13:00] it is not my job to prove the police's story or the, or the prosecution case. So my client, whether they did it or not, wasn't a question. It was whether the police could prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

**Brian:** That they did it. So it becomes an evidence issue. So you are saying that Luke O'Brien spilled water on this client coup. He said. She said, where's the CCTV footage? Where's a statement? Where is where, where is all the supporting evidence that you need? And that's how you work on it. It's like, it's like a puzzle.

**Brian:** The police give you a brief and your job is to look at it, put the pieces together and where it doesn't fit. Question why. 

**Luke:** I wanna hear more about your upbringing in Kenya. 

**Brian:** I, I, I've been thinking about this a lot. I had a recent medical scare and, you know, lying in that hospital bed for the first time in my life, like I've been very fortunate that I've been of good health.

**Brian:** And this [00:14:00] happened at a time when I'm at my most healthier since I came to Australia and I'm lying in this hospital bed and I'm like, where did it go wrong? How am I here? And. I didn't grow up privileged, man. I grew up in a suburb called Common Rock. You know, it was at the time, lower middle income. We didn't have much, but I have no memory of ever missing anything.

**Brian:** Single mom as well. I mean, there are days when we didn't have food on the table, but we just made it work. 

**Luke:** What do you mean? You had no memory of never missing anything? 

**Brian:** I, I just had amazing childhood. 

**Brian:** I'm not sure if people will agree with this, but I migrated and chose was a choice I made to stay in Australia because of the opportunities that are a fast world country, a privileged country like Australia can offer.

**Brian:** But something that I miss is the joy. Yeah. That comes from a society now. [00:15:00] When I grew up, you know, I had like 20 friends, same age. I, I was talking to my wife about this yesterday. I have no memory of ever being alone. My mom would leave for work at 7, 7 30, 8 o'clock. We would be out in the community and they'd be six, seven of us riding bikes, playing soccer.

**Brian:** There was always, I was always with somebody. Even something as simple as riding a bike and people were without much, and my wife will confirm this without much people in Kenya, and I was back home as recently as three years ago, two years ago. People are happier without much. 

**Luke:** So we were talking about the US prior to when we start.

**Luke:** There's a concept I've been thinking of lately because I was listening to a podcast and I heard the, the guy say. You know, oh, without doubt, you know, the US is the best country that's ever [00:16:00] existed in the history of the world. Okay. And for some reason that didn't sit right with me, and I was trying to figure out why.

**Luke:** And I think if you're talking from like an economic point of view, then yes, but I, I think maybe not, but, but what I'm saying is, I don't know. I think western culture is missing something. I think consumerism and materialism and, and I'm on my own kind of I keep saying the word journey, but I'm, I'm on my own kind of journey moving from being obsessed with materialism and consumerism to trying to, you know, grow a deeper connection with my family.

**Luke:** I mean, that's something that I didn't really have growing up and I'm trying to relate that and hearing to it like what you were saying I don't know. I wonder what you think going from somewhere like there to. Here, like what, what you think about the connection between kind of western culture and consumerism and materialism compared to, it sounds like what you were saying, there was a lot more focus on, I guess, connection, relationship, community.

**Brian:** That's right. Like and that sense of togetherness. [00:17:00] Like, I'm not sure. I've been very fortunate where I started a business and the business has done well. 

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** But the more the business grows, I found myself growing farther away from my family. There was a lot more demands and it didn't match matter how much I was getting.

**Brian:** I was still missing because it was, there's always more and more and more. So you're always chasing this rabbit, 

**Luke:** moving the goalpost 

**Brian:** constantly. And it just, felt like the push pull. is a lot harder now. And that's not to say that there are, we don't have people in that emerging countries as they're called now, who are not successful and doing amazing things.

**Brian:** But at the same time, everything else around you is cheaper. So for example, raising a family, three kids, husband and wife my part, I have to have routines and patterns [00:18:00] because all that work rests on, you know, school picker, drop off, dinner, lunch, breakfast, somebody has to do it in Kenya, you can pay for that type of help and it's not that expensive.

**Luke:** Gotcha. 

**Brian:** Here you must do it. Yeah. So the pressures that you have here every day raising a family are def I can tell you this, guaranteed are not the same pressures that somebody has in Kenya. 

**Luke:** Interesting. 

**Brian:** Now, that's not to say that if like me, you give somebody. Where I came from an opportunity to come to Australia that they would say, I don't want to, but because what we chase, what I chase and what people chase is that monetary element.

**Brian:** 'cause you know, financial security is really important. But once you have that financial security and you look at everything else, it's gone. I remember growing up and going to see my grandmother and she lived far, we didn't have a car. So catch public transport. [00:19:00] See here, if I choose to catch public transport, I'll walk past my car.

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** Because it's easier when I grew up or how I grew up was we didn't have a car. Yeah. So public transport, you'd catch three, four different types of public transport just to get where you're going. 

**Luke:** So we can, we will get into the business side afterwards. But I'm interested, I mean, you were saying about chasing financial security, right?

**Luke:** So both you and I have, you know, reasonable sized businesses. I, I, what I'm getting at is I think we'd both have enough financial security at, at this point in our, our life. I mean, how do you think about the the, the continuous moving of the goalpost? I mean, are you comfortable with this? Like, so, so I'm coming from this from my own personal issues.

**Luke:** Like, I constantly, there's two sides of me. There's one where, okay, Luke, you've got more money than you ever expected. I'm not rich by any means, but I've got a good standard of living. My family can travel. We, we go overseas regularly. [00:20:00] You know, we, I have a, not a nicer house than ever thought, but I always fall into this trap of going.

**Luke:** You know, I need more. I need to be the guy that's build, that builds the biggest business ever, who's absolutely rich. And then the other side of me goes, no, no, you've, you've actually achieved what you've set out. Enjoy your time with your family. And those two sides of me are constantly fighting. So I, especially somebody I suppose that's come over from Kenya, I wonder how you see that internal battle 

**Brian:** every day.

**Brian:** But again, recently, as recent as two weeks ago, lying in that hospital bed, I realized that, that this is it. That it doesn't matter how hard I'm chasing when push comes to shove, it's my wife and my kids. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** So now I've made an informed decision, like I'm being purposeful on it to spend a lot more time with them.

**Brian:** But that means I can't give my work, my business, as much love as [00:21:00] it needs. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** So that whole thing of, 'cause ideally for me, when I, when I used to sit back and think about what I wanted, I wanted to build a national mental health specialist agency, a safe space for people struggling with psychosocial disabilities.

**Brian:** But what does that mean for me and my time? 

**Luke:** Can I ask about the driver for that as well, though? Was the driver, you know, to help people? 'cause you're obviously in a, you know, a business that the purpose of the business to help people, or was it a financial driver or was it a combination of the two?

**Luke:** 'cause for me, the early days of the business, I'll be a hundred percent honest, it was all a financial driver. It was all kind of selfish, materialistic. So yeah. What, what were your drivers that you wanted to build that national company? I, 

**Brian:** I. I accidentally landed into this mental health space. You know, I had a career in law.

**Brian:** I prosecuted a case that messed with me, [00:22:00] and before I knew it, I now had anxiety and depression. And I was like, whoa, something has to change. So I stopped law and opened be cognitive to help other lawyers to deal with it. And my point of difference was I wasn't gonna provide mental health training to the junior lawyers.

**Brian:** I was targeting your middle level management because those are the people who influence change. And then before I knew it, I had one person, two people. I was working in the NDI sector and I grew and grew. 

**Luke:** And you were specifically targeting lawyers? I was, 

**Brian:** but then that, then that focus shifted because then I accidentally fell into the NDIS as a psychosocial recovery coach.

**Brian:** Like I was helping somebody. They were one of the first participants to get a recovery coaching plan, which is another NDIS there. There wasn't many recovery coaches in South Australia at the time. They were like, Hey, you [00:23:00] sound like you know a little bit about mental health. Sounds like you're a little bit smart.

**Brian:** Do you mind helping us navigate that? Before I knew it, then that path started. I don't even, I don't have a single law firm, a single lawyer in my books. Okay. But again, the business shifted. But then once I was in that space, I realized that, wait, the first challenge was I knew all my clients by name. I knew what their challenges were, what their strengths were.

**Brian:** But then somebody pointed out that as one person, you can only help a maximum of 22, 25 people before you burn out. 

**Luke:** This is the classic scalability. Yeah. 

**Brian:** Hire second person, because now with two, between the two of you, you can do 40 or 50. Then three. Now we have close to 400 people that we support. But one thing that I really miss, and I sent an email to the team today, in the morning, my managers, I was like, Hey guys, I wanna go back.

**Brian:** I wanna go back on the tools. Because I was losing that sentence. And [00:24:00] because when I was in it, I could identify all these gaps. For example, my virtual reality therapy program, I was like, cool, COVID, Hass happened. Everyone's bailed. How can I change this? So I was implementing not just support, but this innovative way of, of continuous help because I was in it, seeing it, 

**Luke:** okay.

**Brian:** And then the more I pulled back to focus on the management of the business, the less change I could affect because then I wasn't involved in the everyday running of the business, at least in the everyday working with clients. So what does that look like? 

**Luke:** Are you back working with clients? 

**Brian:** Well hopefully if there's enough work.

**Brian:** I sent the email today, in the morning. I was like, guys. I'm healed, I'm feeling a bit better. I wanna go back on the tools. So I wanna delegate a bit more of the managerial tasks to the managers, and then let me go back on the tools for six months a year. Let me go back and feel it and, and get that core sense of purpose that I once had.

**Brian:** And then if I come out again, then hopefully different, drive different ideas. 

**Luke:** Interesting. Yeah. Just [00:25:00] going back to what we were speaking about before I think I've come to the conclusion that the side of me, that when I'm sitting on the couch at home and I'm trying to be present with the kid tells me, Hey, you know, you're meant to be this entrepreneur.

**Luke:** You need to build this business. You know what, you haven't come far enough. I think that side of me is tricking me, right? Yeah. I, I think I built up that persona when I was, I guess a late teen, early twenties because, I don't know, had a, a i, I have a challenging and had a challenging relationship with my parents.

**Luke:** I was very anxious. There was a bit of bullying in late high school, and I think I built up this persona. You know, I'm not good enough. I'm not loved, and I think a lot of my drive for the business came from, if I prove to the world that I am good enough, right? That, that I'm this entrepreneur, that I can do an Iron Man, that I can do this, that I can do that, then there's no reason to bully me and I'll be [00:26:00] loved.

**Luke:** Right? So I've come to realize that. I think I built up that part that's obsessed with success and materialism as a kind of protective coping mechanism. Mechanism coping, coping mechanism. Yeah. So, and realizing that's allowed me to, when that pops up, go. Okay. No, no, that's just Luke, that's the status game.

**Luke:** Luke, who's, you know, he's, he's a teenager who needs love and attention. Thanks for getting me where I am, but you, you're no longer required. And I'm able to kind of focus back on, on family time, I guess, because it, it's something that I really struggled with. Like when my, when my daughter was born either she's eight now.

**Luke:** When she was born in the very early stage of the business. And I remember the day after she was born, I went back to work to like a fucking four, eight hour day. And you know, we, I was very much in the mindset of like, this is what I need to do for my family, I think. And, but I just look back and I just regret that, you know, I just think like, why, like, [00:27:00] I don't know.

**Luke:** I guess I'm living off the fruits of that labor, but. 

**Brian:** Those key moments were missed. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** See, my wife was in labor and you know, if you, in the India space, you do this auditing and the auditing process is hectic. 

**Luke:** You mean external audits to make sure you coming, 

**Brian:** that you're compliant. And I remember sitting with the auditor and saying, Hey, my wife is in labor.

**Brian:** I'll get a call at any time to go be present for the birth of my son. So literally my wife is in hospital in labor and I'm here working. But in, in terms of my motivation

**Brian:** I, I grew be, I think because I grew up not wanting anything, you know, single mom, but she was, she was a power woman. She was a powerhouse. It meant that I had a lot of confidence and I've always had confidence as a, as a kid, as a team, as an adult. I don't lack confidence, but I remember. The first time, like when I went to high school, I didn't do [00:28:00] particularly well until one kid was just like, oh, I'm actually better than you.

**Brian:** And then I was like, oh, do you think, let me show you why I'm better than you. Then I excelled. Then when it came time to choose a career, I didn't want to do anything. But then I grew up in a society where lawyer, engineer, doctor, so somewhere, you know, that's where we were told we needed to go. I wasn't good at sciences, but I was good at history.

**Brian:** I was good in English, so I was like, oh, I'm just gonna do law. But then I finished law and then I realized actually I don't really have a passion for, and there's this pivotal moment where my wife and I, man, this is way back when, 20. 2015. 2014 we had an argument. She works in the public service and it was an argument between Australia's responsibilities with Tim Molester and 

**Luke:** with 

**Brian:** Tim Molester, the country and natural gas and petroleum production.

**Luke:** Yep, yep. 

**Brian:** And she said, well, we are arguing. I can argue. And she said something to the effect of, you are arguing about something that you don't know. And I paused. I was like, oh [00:29:00] cool. You're right. So I went and I did a master's in international law and then I came back to the argument. I was like, now I know.

**Brian:** Now I know 

**Luke:** you did a masters to win an argument with your wife, people arguing with 

**Brian:** your wife now. And that said, I always wanted, 'cause then at the time, that's 

**Luke:** the next level of 

**Brian:** competitive and pettiness. But there was also the country, Kenya, our leaders had just gone through the ICJ, so the International Criminal Court of Justice.

**Brian:** So it's like, oh, then I can match that, then I can understand those politics. So then I did a master's, and then when I stopped doing law altogether and then I ended up in this psychosocial space, I found that my passion, I love helping people. And for my whole career, my whole time, like my whole period, I've always been a problem solver.

**Brian:** I've always been the person that people come to talk to. So I, I'm really good at listening. So let me jump into a career where I can listen and have the tools. So I started, you know, I did [00:30:00] my certificate for mental health. I'm a mental health fast aid trainer. Then I started pursuing a bachelor's in psychology just because that was the next challenge.

**Brian:** So for me, my drive isn't monetary, it's more challenge based. I realize that I'm not good at. Things like, I'm not good in science, I'm not good in math, but I'm really good at problem solving. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** So if I see a problem, I'm in it. And that's where I get my drive. So the more I can, even if you look at how I run the business, I'm constantly, every day problem solving.

**Luke:** Yeah. And 

**Brian:** I thrive in that space. That's where I win. And that's my point of difference. My drive is the challenge. 

**Luke:** God, that's so cool. I mean, I, I'm just saying that from a point of view where, like, up until the last few years, I feel like my whole life I was just obsessed with wealth, obsessed with wanting more.

**Luke:** And to hear that, you know, you grew up in Kenya and, and never really wanting for anything. 

**Brian:** I always wanted to be comfortable, don't get me wrong, like I [00:31:00] didn't want to be, my mom asked me for one thing and one thing only. She was like, this is the. Level, this is the financial security I've been able to provide for you.

**Brian:** So the only thing she asked of us was, don't drop that. Mm-hmm. So that's the only thing I live by. 

**Brian:** So I remember buying my fast car, I remember buying my fast house. Those are key moments. But you see, that was more almost out of a sense of responsibility, not wanting to disappoint my mom. Wow. But that wasn't my dream.

**Brian:** You know, even now with people gauge success in, you know, you wanna drive the best car, but I'm in a haval and I absolutely love that car. Out of all the cars that I could have purchased, that is a car that I absolutely love. The tech and everything behind it, I'm in it. People wanna buy a Tesla. I'm like, You know, are you sure that's the best investment? I'm like, have you heard about the BYD? 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** And then, God, you 

**Luke:** are just like the person I want to be. Right? I'm the exact opposite. So you've seen my car at the front. It cost me a lot of [00:32:00] money, and I loved it for about five minutes. And then I went, I've got a big fucking load to play back.

**Luke:** So I wish, like in the moment, I didn't just get so caught up and, and look, I think obviously, like I've done a lot of changes in my life, you know, realizing a lot of this over the last few years. But yeah, it's just, it's, 

**Brian:** oh, you know, I've, I've done a few things wrong and especially around business.

**Brian:** I'm not a particularly good businessman. I make decisions based off my gut. So I'm just like, how, what does my gut tell me? My gut is usually never wrong, but from an Excel spreadsheet perspective. Man, the spreadsheet doesn't care about your gut. Yeah. It's what's in and out. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** Culture from an organization, that was massive for me.

**Brian:** That was probably one of the hardest things I ever had to learn. You know, I had this practice of hiring the best. 'cause People teach you, well, at least what I was taught from a business perspective is you hire people who are smarter than you. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** [00:33:00] That was one of the worst pieces of advice I've ever received.

**Brian:** Wow. 

**Luke:** Why? 

**Brian:** Because from a culture I bring Brian, I tell people I don't have a home personality and I don't have a work personality. What do you see on Monday? Man? You struggle with me on Monday. I promise you you'll struggle with me on Sunday. I am who I am and I don't change for anyone. 

**Luke:** Yep. 

**Brian:** So anyone who struggles with my personality, I'm loud, I'm bright, I'm bubbly, I, I say it how it is.

**Brian:** You struggle with that. You come to my workspace and it is a toxic work environment. So I remember the first time somebody say that. I was a shit manager. I was toxic. That challenged me. 'cause I literally built an office space where people could come and be safe and want to be in. 

**Luke:** This is a staff member that said you're a shit 

**Brian:** manager.

**Brian:** Yeah, man. And And I can see why. Because what they needed, I couldn't provide, they needed somebody to be there with them. Almost micromanage, you know, provide step-by-step guidance. That doesn't work for me. [00:34:00] I want to work with people. I don't think that ever works, but, but you see, I wanna work with people who are free thinkers.

**Brian:** Yeah, me too. I have a rule in the office. Yeah, we do it. And then you ask for forgiveness. The only thing I ask is you just explain your reasoning to me. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** And even if there's an issue, I'll back you and then we can work on it. But I want to empower people to feel confident in making bold, bright decisions.

**Brian:** So the person who needs that much level of support coming to a space where. I'm like, you go, do you, you see the clash? 

**Luke:** Yeah, I can look, I completely agree. And, and I'm the same as far as there's no work, Luke and home, Luke, I'm the same person. And that's just because, I mean, that matters to me more and more as they get older because like I, spend what, 40 to 60 hours at work now, and I don't want, like, that's a fair chunk of my time.

**Luke:** And I don't want that pretending to be someone else. I don't want that to be miserable. So culture is extremely important to me. So how have you made the shift from hiring I guess for raw talent to hiring for culture? [00:35:00] What, what does that entail? 

**Brian:** Two or three people in the interview room. And I always, I'm always in the space, especially if it's somebody I'm gonna work with and I show them the real me.

**Brian:** And you know, I've been a bright, colorful t-shirt or business. Everything. The walls, the colors, they're bright. And I usually say, what you see today. Is who you're gonna see tomorrow. If I have said anything that rubs you off the wrong way or that you are uncomfortable with, I urge you if you're successful in this role, not to take it because you will struggle.

**Brian:** And then I've also empowered the managers to be able to make a decision and say, Brian, I know you love that person, but they're not a good fit for us. Because they also know that you have the feel they're with the team every day. They're connected. So if they say no, I will tell them Outra. I'll be like, I disagree with you.

**Brian:** I think that was the best candidate. But if you're telling me they're not a good fit, I'll accept that. 

**Luke:** Yeah. You [00:36:00] need to buy in. 

**Brian:** I accept that. Yeah. Because then I need to be able to say as well, that I've told you that I think that's the best person. Mm-hmm. But I also respect you and your judgment and your knowledge of the team to be able to say, okay, they will not be a fit because of X, Y, Z reason.

**Brian:** Cool. I mean, I had one leave recently in a hail of bullets, and it's only after that person left that I realized that she was one of the most toxic people to be in the space, only because I don't micromanage. So I don't see it. I just believe that people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** But within the team, people have been really, really unhappy. Really unhappy, but nobody also felt empowered enough to be able to come say to my face. 

**Luke:** Yeah. I, I think it's incredibly important to extract that from people. I think if you've got a bad [00:37:00] egg it just destroys the culture and, and the passion about it for everybody else around them.

**Luke:** And, and, you know, you need procedures to be able to extract that information from people and, and fix that. And 

**Brian:** incredibly. The most incredible thing is that if you ask that person, Brian is the devil. But in all honesty, neither of us are the devil. We are just different personalities, different cultures.

**Brian:** Yeah. We need different things. And in my space, 'cause it's my space, I should get what I need to be able to thrive. You go do something else, you go do you where you can then do something that works best for you and find people who are the best fit. Mm-hmm. For your culture, that was one of the hardest lessons to learn that it's okay for people to leave.

**Brian:** Especially if I am the problem. 

**Luke:** Yes. Because I wanna be 

**Brian:** friends with everyone. I wanna make sure everyone's okay, everyone's happy. I'm like, no. How's everyone feeling? It doesn't work. As the company gets bigger, 

**Luke:** doesn't work. [00:38:00] 

**Brian:** No, but, but now there's always one or two people who. I'm just not a good fit for one or two reasons, but so long as the rest of the team are happy, I had the opposite problem post covid.

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** I could not keep people out of the office. People actually wanna come to the office. They can work flexibly from anywhere they want. We had a staff member recently work from the uk. You work where you're most comfortable. 

**Luke:** Yep. 

**Brian:** But they wanna be in the office. 'cause they get along, people get along, people actually wanna be in each other's space.

**Luke:** It's interesting what you were saying about, you know, keeping everybody happy and all of that. In probably about three or four years into the business, I've spoke about this quite a bit, but I started having serious mental health issues. Like, gotta the point where I was having panic attacks. Mm-hmm. And I, I just couldn't operate.

**Luke:** And, and I've done a lot of reflecting on that time and I think a lot of it was, I just like, I only just started managing staff. Right. I would've had three or four staff at the thing at the time. And I was just [00:39:00] obsessed with keeping everybody happy. Right. And I think at some point I realized that you cannot keep everybody happy and some people just don't work out in certain cultures.

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. And, you know, you're trying to fit a square, pegging a round hole and me trying, yeah. It, it just led to me just absolutely. Yeah. Stress to the absolute max all of the time. 

**Brian:** How long have you been in business for? Eight 

**Luke:** years. 

**Brian:** See, I'm half year. 

**Luke:** Yep. 

**Brian:** So most, oh really? Yeah, man, I've only been in it for four years.

**Brian:** Okay. Have I finished? I think this is my fourth year. Fourth year in April. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** And some of these lessons, business lessons, management lessons, all these lessons that people have knowledge about over years and years. I didn't, I didn't even come from, I. Working in a similar environment, having that background knowledge to be able to implement.

**Brian:** I came from a legal background [00:40:00] starting a mental health practice. 

**Luke:** I, I can relate. I didn't come from a business deep planning curve. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

**Brian:** No. Like we had one person who literally, they were one of the best in their fields and by the time she left, she was destroyed. Like she was, I'm assuming the same panic attacks and the same feeling of overwhelming that she just didn't cope.

**Luke:** Why is that because of the structure of your business as in That's 

**Brian:** right. Because of me and I, and I put it back on myself because I believe as leaders, we are the ones who set the tone at the pace and the culture of the organization. Yeah. If your manager is toxic, everyone else feels it. So if, and I'm well, I'm hoping where she's now.

**Brian:** That she's thriving because when she left, the whole organization was the better off because that negativity left with them. 

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] 

**Brian:** And that was what, three years, two years ago, a year and a half ago. But we are always learning. And that's my take on this. Every day I learn something new every day. 

**Luke:** So you've got two businesses?

**Brian:** Yes. 

**Luke:** Can you tell me about 'em? Three. Three. Three. You're a sucker for punishment. 

**Brian:** I'm a sucker for punishment. So 

**Luke:** tell me about 'em. 

**Brian:** My pride and joys be cognitive mental health practice. When I started Be Cognitive, we say it was the good old days of the NDIS, you know, the plans were, and this are the plans that participants have.

**Brian:** They were structured in a way where support workers, who are the people who go into people's homes to provide the care and support. The hours were a lot. So do six hours a day. Five hours a day. 

**Luke:** What does that mean, mental health support? Right. So, you know, I've, I, I've had my own battles with mental health, but as far as like support, I go and see a psychologist.

**Luke:** So what does that, what does your company act services do you offer? So 

**Brian:** we are predominantly NDI, so we talk about big [00:42:00] cognitive, you know, your psychosocial disabilities, your mental health. It's mental health counseling. We have your psychosocial recovery coaching, something called the Kitchen Crew Mental Health Mentoring and Holding.

**Brian:** Essentially it's different services that cater for. So for example, your mental health counselor will work on those strategies that you'd implement with your psychologist. Your psychosocial recovery, coaching lesser qualifications than a mental health counselor, but still a certificate for mental health.

**Brian:** And they can help implement the strategies that you've been given from a psychologist, a psychiatrist, or a counselor. They see you a lot more regularly. 

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** Your mental health mentors are literally like a peer buddy. Somebody with lived experience with mental health. You know, you're struggling with social anxiety coming out of your home, struggling with just everyday routine.

**Brian:** The people who can come to your home and just help you, you know, let's, let's, let's leave the house today. Let's go shopping. Let's go watch a movie. Let's go play some lawn balls. Let's go do something. Have a buddy with you that you resonate with, that you interact with that [00:43:00] can help 

**Luke:** Yeah. So almost like an implementer.

**Luke:** Yeah, 

**Brian:** exactly. So that's be cognitive then, you know, so I community, which is the second one that started, because when I started in this space. Not many providers. So, and has, has a very many different types of services, but in that specific area for your core supports, which are your disability support workers, not many providers wanted to take what we call small amount of hours, like a two hour shift.

**Brian:** A three hour shift. So it was very difficult to find people who would take that work on. So I started our community to be able to do that. Then virtual reality therapy, it's exactly that. It's via therapy done remotely. 

**Luke:** Tell me more about that. Oh, that is my, 

**Brian:** that is my CO baby. That is the, it's a gift that doesn't give.

**Brian:** It's probably one of the most. Innovative tools out there to help with mental health. It is absolutely [00:44:00] brilliant for a range of demographic from your 14 to about your 45 year olds. We live in an era where we were all at one point or another, we've had access to computers. We now have mobile phones that we can play games in.

**Brian:** So it's literally environments via environments that have been designed and co-designed by psychiatrists and psychologists to help target different types of mental health issues. Whether it's anxieties, whether it's different types of phobias, like it's purpose built for that. The biggest challenge we have is of this amazing piece of technology.

**Brian:** But people can't quite see how it works. This is because they're used to traditional therapy. 

**Luke:** This, this is very novel. Is it? 

**Brian:** It, it is, it's, it's not novel in the sense that it's American based. It's American military, what, four years, 40 years ago now. Vietnam, 

**Luke:** American military. That sounds scary. That's how it 

**Brian:** started to treat PTSD.

**Luke:** Oh, okay. That's good. Okay. I'll You meant the other way, going into the military, trying to desensitize people? 

**Brian:** No, it was to [00:45:00] treat post-traumatic disorders. Oh, that's, that's good. Yeah. And then over the years, 40 years, it's just different people have ta, Harvard have a vr therapy program. Over the years, all these experts have taken aspects of it and improved it and changed it to be able to target different things.

**Brian:** So in terms of the literacy, the peer journals, the thesis behind it. It is well documented that it helps. Mm-hmm. It's not a one size fits all, we say. It's another tool in the toolbox. 

**Luke:** Just, just for everyone listening, can you describe exactly what it is, how it works? I guess you know the, the actual implementation of it.

**Brian:** So we work on the assumption that people know what virtual reality is. Yes. Either, you know what a Meta Quest headset is. You've gone to a via gaming room and experienced that. So it's the same concept. The difference is, instead of playing Fortnite [00:46:00] on it, the environment that you're looking at is one that's been custom built to trigger certain responses in your brain to direct it towards certain mental health issues.

**Brian:** So for example, if you have a phobia of spiders, we are able to put the via headset on. Then you would put the spider, you'd slowly introduce the spider 'cause it's exposure therapy. Exposure 

**Luke:** therapy 

**Brian:** in the corner of the room. Over time, gradually build it so that the spider just moves closer and closer and closer until if the person feels comfortable, it's on their arm.

**Luke:** So it's, you know, I mean, I'm gonna butcher this, but you're triggering that physical response and trying to train the body that it's actually not in the danger that the physical reaction is making you believe it's in. 

**Brian:** Yeah. 'cause if you, the whole concept of VR is to trick your [00:47:00] mind into believing you're somewhere where you're not.

**Brian:** So, it sounds really simple when I say it, but if you have a, a fear of spiders and there's a spider in the corner, it will throw you. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** The difference is now with the VR headset, all you need to do is remove it. Just lift it off your head and you in your safe space and on. And so with traditional talk therapy, which is really important, that's why we say VR is another tool in the toolbox With traditional talk therapy, you'll talk about it and your therapist will ask you to think about it and imagine that it's there.

**Brian:** We now take that imagine into, actually it is there, it's not true. It's your mind thinking. It's there because of your headset shows. It's there, but it's not actually there. Even when it's on your arm and you panic, all you need to do is remove the headset and it's no longer there. We have another one that helps with public speaking and that's right, and [00:48:00] it puts you in a podium and the podium is empty and you can do your speech and then when you're ready, we introduce one person, two people, a hundred people.

**Brian:** God, that's interesting how you are going. We can then have the cloud clap. We can have somebody, we can have somebody in the crowd who starts to boo. 

**Luke:** Wow, 

**Brian:** we 

**Luke:** can have somebody. I'm uncomfortable thinking about this, but 

**Brian:** imagine, you know, we say, imagine, but this is reality. You can do it now where you have this and you can practice it from home.

**Brian:** So we are national provider for that. But you can do it once a day, well, once a week, once a month, twice a day, three times a day and practice it. 

**Luke:** Yeah. Well, so public speaking has been something that I'm trying to get better and better at. You know, this podcast is part of the attempt at that. But I started with Toastmasters and I remember when I first started, I [00:49:00] could barely speak.

**Luke:** And then you do that a bunch of times and you get better, and then now you have to put your hand up to hosting events. But I can see the value in being able to, you know, the, the reality is you can't just come home and do public speaking every day. So I can see the value in having a mechanism to be able to trigger that, you know, on a daily basis.

**Brian:** So imagine if you combine via therapy with Toastmasters. Yeah. So you know, you're going for your fast Toastmaster, and before that, two weeks, three weeks before that, you practice your speech with the via headset in front of an, an empty auditorium. Then you have one person, then two people, then three people.

**Brian:** By the time you go for your first experience at Toastmaster, you've already been able to do it with 10 people in the room. Now it'll be a different environment, but your brain has already, it's sports. You. You can be born good at soccer, football, but the more you practice, then you trigger that muscle memory.

**Brian:** So you [00:50:00] know, if I kick this ball with my right foot at this angle, it will hit the top right hand corner of the post. You might miss a few times, but that muscle memory is in build, that's vr. So already your muscle memory has already been strengthened enough to have that one person, two people, three people.

**Brian:** So when you do your first experience, you can fall back on that. 

**Luke:** So I'm interested in how the actual business operates. Is this business currently generating revenue? No. Okay. 

**Brian:** Well, our biggest challenge the first two years was education. Teaching people what it's about. 

**Luke:** Yeah, because, but prior, like, I mean, I've spoken to you about this before, but I'd never heard of it prior to speaking with you about, and I can definitely see the value.

**Luke:** So what's the business model? 

**Brian:** Well, that's what we are currently working on. We've had to shift it a few times. And the most recent one now is it's telehealth based, trying to make it a lot more accessible, spreading it around Australia. The [00:51:00] biggest deterrent is the cost of the actual VIA headset. 

**Luke:** So is this, it's a program that would already connect, let, let's say if somebody's got a meta or whatever they're called.

**Luke:** Yes. Oculus, whatever. Is this a, did you sell the program? So we don't sell the program. Yeah, 

**Brian:** we, 'cause it's therapy. So with any therapy interventions you must have a therapist at the back of the center. Ah, okay. So there is a therapist who's guiding you through. Mm-hmm. And because of those trauma responses, you know, the spider being at the corner of the room might trigger a severe anxiety reaction.

**Brian:** So, so you need somebody there to be able to help you walk through that 

**Luke:** and the client needs to already have the hardware prior to you engaging. right. So the problem is that the hardware is potentially not really out there at the moment. 

**Brian:** That's right. And now what we have now is that you can.

**Brian:** Lease the headset. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** Because you know, a meta headset is now about what, $499? $500? Yeah. So you can lease it, you pay for x number of sessions. Once you're done with it, you return it. 

**Luke:** Interesting. Okay. See, [00:52:00] 

**Brian:** and that, that one is new and also the different types of software. So the more we use it, the more we get feedback.

**Brian:** So we do have clients, there are people who are using it, but Oh, 

**Luke:** you do, you do currently have clients. Yeah, we do 

**Brian:** have clients. But you know, when you ask about it's revenue generating in, in that it's staying alive, but it's not doing what it's supposed to be doing for what it is, it's still not creating enough traction.

**Brian:** So that's my project. That's my baby. 

**Luke:** Yeah. Last time I spoke to you also told me about some deradicalization stuff you're working on. Are you happy to talk about that? 

**Brian:** Yes. You know, this is, and, and this is probably my point of difference where I'm always listening. I'm always hearing about what people need.

**Brian:** And I heard about this story of a young aboriginal teen who had a SWAT sticker sticker in his room. Now just take a second and think about that. 

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. And 

**Brian:** think about what that symbol represents. [00:53:00] And then you have this kid who has it. 

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** So then it became a question of, okay, well how can we target that?

**Brian:** And it's not about going and telling them it's wrong. 

**Luke:** I mean, how does that happen? I mean, is is he targeted by a, 

**Brian:** at schools, in prison, in custodial setting? You know, it's all about funding, connection, funding tribes. It's, you know, it's, we are always looking for family. We are looking for people who understand us.

**Brian:** There's all this content on social media now. So if you don't have the full picture, this looks like it's, you know. Oh, this sounds so good. Like, these guys are so cool. They're talking about all these things that affect me, but you just don't know the history behind it. Ah, that's and what the foundation is of that.

**Luke:** That's so interesting how you put it. I mean, I can relate to that. Right? So I spoke about previously how I felt, I dunno, we didn't really, I didn't really have a family unit growing up. Like, like I did, I had brothers and sisters and parents. Like, we had the family unit, but there was not really any love or connection.

**Luke:** My, my parents are [00:54:00] very emotionally detached and there's no resentment there. They just ca they just had a hard child themselves. Anyway in my late teens, early twenties, you know, I think I was desperate for community and I fell into some fairly bad circles. Got heavily involved in drugs. God, how, how far do I want to go here?

**Luke:** You know, a little bit of crime, stuff like that. But like when you put it that way, you can actually see the path. If somebody's looking for community and, and that's a place that they can get it, you can see how that would happen. 

**Brian:** But look, it doesn't stop there. What about the trauma that you carried during that time?

**Brian:** You spoke about bullying in high school. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** Nothing ever happens in isolation. You didn't just one day wake up and decide, you know what, now I'm just gonna do this. Yeah. There, there's always something that we've gone through, experience that trauma that becomes the catalyst for the drugs, for the alcohol.

**Brian:** So now even with this radicalization, anti radicalization program that we have, we are not just looking at it [00:55:00] as a ika thing. Let's give you some education. It's what kind of therapeutic interventions do you need? Let's talk about some of that trauma while doing that, let's give you a little bit of education around what that symbol actually represents, what it speaks to, and how it doesn't align.

**Brian:** With who you are. And that more importantly, that group will never accept you. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** You do not have blonde blue eyes. 

**Luke:** You're being used 

**Brian:** literally. But it starts with the trauma identification. So, so how does that fit 

**Luke:** into your business? So that's something that 

**Brian:** Yeah, it's a, it's a mentoring program that we have, we find 

**Luke:** is that through B, cognitive through 

**Brian:** B cognitive, we find somebody who associates, or somebody who is within the same age group, somebody that they can relate to.

**Brian:** That person has the tools, the skills, and they, they start, and it's a tailored program for each and every individual. And it's working education, therapy. You know, [00:56:00] I grew up in a culture where men were men. You know, there's this word that my grandmother used, used a fair bit, and it was, which is like mana, you know?

**Brian:** And essentially what she was saying is men don't show emotions. Men do man thing. Men. Men do monthly things, but. In those moments where I was vulnerable, now I know what I needed at that time. It wasn't that it would've been for somebody to ask, talk, and say, talk to me about how you're feeling. So my 5-year-old Raphael, I was talking to him yesterday and we were talking about this feeling in his stomach that he gets, or that he got before he did his presentation in class.

**Brian:** And he's fortunate enough to have a dad who understands what that is. So I'm not gonna give him some complex explanations. It's telling him that that's okay and what that feeling is, what is that? How did it feel like, how did it make you feel like then what were you about to do? So I helped him [00:57:00] identify that him getting ready for the presentation made him anxious.

**Brian:** What does anxious mean? Just a little bit scared. Yeah. And how did you overcome it and building on that? That's awesome. For me, my training was man, man up. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** And then we wonder why we've created, and we have a generation of men 

**Luke:** Stop being a pussy. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. I definitely resonate with that.

**Luke:** What 

**Brian:** happened to that? Like what happened to that guy where you told him to stop being a pussy, so now he ain't a pussy anymore? 

**Luke:** Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I had so much deep seated issues pushed down that that's what initially led me to alcoholism and drug addiction. You know, it's 

**Brian:** and you're still on your journey, like you said.

**Brian:** Yeah. Even being able to sit here do a podcast and say it out loud, like it is part of the healing journey because the more, the more you say it, the less power you take from it. [00:58:00] I remember, and this was one of the hardest things that I had to do in business, was being that authentic self, the way I dress, the way I look, how I keep my hair and everything around him.

**Brian:** I wanted to create a persona. But I wasn't happy. So one day I woke up and I was like, you know what? I am who I am. I'll dress how I am. And that is the end of 

**Luke:** it. I think that's the lifelong journey. and it goes to what I was speaking about before. You know, there's who I am and you know what I am.

**Luke:** And then there's obsession with wealth and being successful. So, because that's a persona that I built, so other people would love me, you know? Whereas I need to realize that in the moment and be like, no, no, that's not who I am. That's not who I want to be. And try to pull back 

**Brian:** and where are these people when you're lying in your hospital bed?

**Luke:** Yeah, 

**Brian:** cool. They love you. They love you 'cause you have all these things. But [00:59:00] when you're sick, if something happens and your business is no longer in existence, then. we live life, or at least I live life scared of making mistakes. And I had a really tough, I've had a really tough few years and I realized that you show me one person who's perfect.

**Brian:** Show me one. Now this is, I think it's a biblical saying, or I don't know if it's biblical or if it's cultural, but people in glass houses don't throw stones. Yeah. I had that a few years back and I was like, you know, that's right. You without, oh, it's you without sin, you show me. Yeah. And then I met somebody.

**Luke:** So, yeah. 

**Brian:** One of the best things I learned last year was this concept of, and, and then, so I want, this person has an issue with me. And that sounds like a them problem. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** Or this happened. [01:00:00] And then that sounds like a you problem. Don't make a me problem. You have a problem with me. That's a you problem. I have a problem with you.

**Brian:** That's a me problem. Let me handle the things that are in my control. So those two words, and, and then, and then I have been saying them religiously this whole year. That's my new philosophy. And, and then 

**Luke:** brilliant. There's a couple more things I wanna ask you about ask. One of them is because you're involved in mental health and if you don't wanna talk about it, I'm more than happy to not, because it's obviously a taboo subject.

**Luke:** What do you think about psychedelics and mental health? Do you have any linked or thoughts regarding those subjects? So 

**Brian:** personally, I have a very addictive personality. 

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** So I don't double, I just, I don't do things because I can't stop once I start. But we did the big cognitive men's mental health gala last year.

**Brian:** And during that journey of trying to get people on board, I was opened up to this [01:01:00] whole new world of alternative therapies. There's this amazing guy that I'm I met who does salt therapy. 

**Luke:** What therapy? Salt. Salt. 

**Brian:** Yeah. I forget what it's called, but it's, it's around salt. So you sit in this room and the floor is the Himalayan salt and you breathe in this, it is brilliant.

**Brian:** And this idea, I was open, like my whole world got shifted to, yes, VI is great. Amazing. Traditional talk therapy is amazing. Great. But there's no one size fits all. See what else is out there. So long as you have some guidance around it, I don't see why not. 

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** So long as it's not illegal, I don't see why not.

**Brian:** Experiment tries my mental health journey. Don't know about yours. But with mine, the traditional coping strategies didn't work. So I had to get creative. Now I now have a monthly recurring appointment with my [01:02:00] psychologist. She's brilliant. And, and my whole team knows. I go to see a psychologist and the joke is like a car, I just go in for a tuneup.

**Brian:** I just go in and if, if I'm having a really challenging week, I'll book in an extra session. 

**Luke:** Yeah. '

**Brian:** cause I've identified that I need it. 

**Luke:** Yeah. I, I would relate to that. And as far as, you know, you're saying there's different avenues I think. Traditional talk therapy. I, I, I'm the same as you. I see one on a, on a regular basis for a tuneup.

**Luke:** And that's helped me a lot. But then I think I just continually keep adding other strategies and it just, yeah, I just feel like it continuously just keeps getting better and better. 

**Brian:** See, for me, it's mu hai. There's something about kicking that bag that I find so therapeutic. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** Like I go in for an hour session and I will hit that bag with as much force as I can.

**Brian:** By the time I leave that session, I'm sweaty. But more importantly, my mind is clear. 

**Luke:** I'm the same with training. It's [01:03:00] either running or weights and meditation. Huge one for me. 

**Brian:** That's, that's my goal for this year. Meditation. 

**Luke:** Yeah. I just, 

**Brian:** finding time to do 

**Luke:** it. It's hard because it, it's hard because you don't see the initial, it, it takes a while to see the benefit.

**Luke:** Right. So to take 10 minutes out of every single day, it's, it's not easy. 

**Brian:** See, and for certain people they'll hear that and be like, 10 minutes. But my day, I can go a full day. My day usually starts anywhere between three and 4:00 AM because then I go to the office and I'm the only person there. I can smash out work, but from seven 30 till two 30, when I go to pick up my kids, there are days when I have back to back to back appointments.

**Luke:** Mm-hmm. 

**Brian:** Sometimes I don't even, I don't even have a toilet break. 

**Luke:** Yeah. No one after the other. I'm the same. And then if I'm in the office, I get ripped in every direction. Mm-hmm. So like now I'll spend at least one, maybe two days here in here smashing out work. Yeah. It's the only way I can get stuff done.[01:04:00] 

**Brian:** Part of the reason why I ended up at the ED was I had a, an appointment with my gp. I had, I canceled three appointments over six weeks 'cause I was too busy to go to my doctors.

**Luke:** Yeah, look, I mean, that sounds like me. Pre panic attacks. That's scary. 

**Brian:** Three appointments. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** So by the time I went in and I got that referral for a surgeon, three days later, I was in, I was, I was in the ed. 

**Luke:** Yeah. Look, so in the early, I guess five years of the business, my, my hours fluctuated from like 80 to a hundred hours, right?

**Luke:** And I gotta to a point where I was like, I'm fucking miserable. Like, I, I'm not happy like the business was started so I could provide life for my family. This is what goes through before I've provided that life. What am I still doing here? And it goes back to that status game, Luke, who's obsessed with how everybody sees him, and it's just a constant fight in my head.

**Luke:** Between those two versions of [01:05:00] myself, 

**Brian:** I started to be cognitive because I wanted a work life balance. Like when I was selling it to my wife, I was like, you know what, I'll start work. I'll build to plan my day. So I'll drop off the kids at eight 30. Yeah. And then I'll see my first client at nine. I'll finish by one o'clock.

**Brian:** Yeah, two o'clock. And the number of times I call, I'm like, man, my meetings run late. Are you free to go pick up the kids? Yeah. It's become this running joke. She sees my phone call between one and two o'clock, and she's like, you need me to pick up the kids today, don't you? Because I'm just like, oh, something happened.

**Brian:** And oof, there we go. But now I'm starting, like when I go to the office, like today, I was in the office at four now 3, 3 45. But I finished at six, drove home, got the kids ready, got myself ready. After school, they went and I got into the office and that's become another routine. Pick them up at three o'clock home.

**Brian:** At least now I've been able to, people know, do not call me [01:06:00] between two 30 and six because that's my, unless it's an emergency. 

**Luke:** Yeah, 

**Brian:** because then once I go to sleep at six, call me six, six thirty, I'm free. We've already had dinner, we've already done a song, a book, and you're getting ready for bed. That's okay.

**Luke:** Okay. Finally, I wanna learn something interesting about Kenya to either about your childhood or Kenyan culture.

**Brian:** You should definitely visit Kenya, especially on this journey that you are on. I took my family for the first time, like my wife and three kids. My wife had been and the kids loved it. One is a cultural imagine. But the second one was, Kenya has one of the seven natural wonders of the world, the wildebeest migration.

**Brian:** Oh, wow. And it's this massive migration of wildebeest, like I think it's in the hundreds of thousands that move from Kenya towards Tanzania during the rainy season in such of greener pastures. It doesn't sound like much, but it literally shifts our [01:07:00] whole ecosystem from one country to another and witnessing it.

**Brian:** I remember my son seeing a lion in the, on the fast for the fast time in real life. So when you go to Kenya, like other countries, you drive through these game reserves. Not, not parks, but a game reserve. And it's a reserve because there's no natural fence, there's no human made fences. They're all natural.

**Brian:** So when there's a lion there, 

**Luke:** what's a natural fence? 

**Brian:** Like? There's no, not a like, manmade fence. Some like tours, some of these wildlife reserves. Yeah. They fence it. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** To keep the animals in. Yep, yep, yep. But for the migration, you can't fence it. Yeah. Because they take a natural path. So when you see the lion look, you are in a car.

**Brian:** You are the one who's in a cage. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** But the animal is where it's supposed to be. It's just chilling. It's, it's in its natural environment. It's not, think about the zoo here. You go in and all the animals [01:08:00] are in a cage. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** They're in an enclosure. 

**Luke:** Any safety concerns? A hundred percent. Amen. So, but my wife just, she but me in a van.

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** So if you get out, man, you are in the lion's home. Yeah. That's a you 

**Luke:** problem. Yeah. 

**Brian:** Yeah. But so long as you stay in there and we did that for four days and you know 

**Luke:** what time of year this. 

**Brian:** It's September, October, so we went in December. So we missed the Wilder bases migration, but we saw the end of it and we see this elephants, so interesting fact about elephants.

**Brian:** One of the few mammals outside of humans that have a midwife, the larger herds have a group. Oh, really? And we are driving and you see, and the, the African elephants, African elephants are the largest elephants. And now we are in their home. Alright? This is not a zoo, this is a reserve. This is a wildlife park.

**Brian:** And there's an elephant there. And there's, you know, the, what we assume, or at least the tour guy told us, was the grandmother, elephant, the mother and the baby. And the baby [01:09:00] starts charging at our car with the ears flipping. And next minute the grandmother turns around and it starts charging at the car.

**Brian:** Now obviously you keep a safe distance and this tour guides, this is what they do one 

**Luke:** way. What's the safe distance? 

**Brian:** safe enough to be able to reverse back and head out. 

**Luke:** Okay. 

**Brian:** But you see that was also a warning shot. Yeah. It was like, what are you doing here? Like a back off, get the the fuck outta work.

**Brian:** We have a key here. But you know, like being able to experience that, being able to see that type of animal interaction that the way the ecosystem is supposed to be. It is brilliant. It is amazing. Like I grew up never being able to afford to go. So the first time I went was after I'd come to Australia. Oh wow.

**Brian:** So the first time we went to the Maasai Mara was in 2015. I'd never been 

**Luke:** What the, what? Sorry? It's called the 

**Brian:** Maasai Mara. 

**Luke:** So what's that? That's, [01:10:00] that's a area. Okay. 

**Brian:** So it's like, you know, going to co pd. Yep. It's not that far, but it's. That's the region. Yeah. It's like Ma, I'd never been, 'cause I could never afford it, but for once I could.

**Brian:** So I took her and then I took the kids and my son, two of them. 'cause the other one was too little. They still talk about it to today. Interesting. 

**Luke:** Yeah. So Jess wants to do, she wants to go somewhere in Africa. She really wants to do something like that. You think Kenya has the spot? 

**Brian:** You don't, there's certain countries where they will literally create.

**Brian:** So you know to, to avoid any doubt, look, white wines are endangered so they are normally kept and closed. But that's to keep porches up. Mm-hmm So you have white RINOs thanks to UNICEF I think it is, who have guards 'cause they're endangered. But everything else you go in and these five star hotels like you, you know, it's not slamming it just in case it's people who camp out, separate issue.

**Brian:** But you literally go in and it's. [01:11:00] It's the same. My 

**Luke:** wife won't be camping out. She, she'll go for the five star 

**Brian:** and also just the first thing you will notice, the first aspect is people are one hungry people will just want to do, and the second one is that people are genuinely happy. The third one is what poverty looks like.

**Brian:** It makes you appreciate, you know, just in case Kenya is one of those countries where there's wealth. Yeah. And it's wealth like greater than Australian wealth. The wealthy are super wealthy. 

**Luke:** So, so I've done India before and it's crazy in Mumbai, there is a billionaire who owns his own skyscraper. 

**Brian:** I've seen it with a helipad 

**Luke:** and then there's a fucking slump Shunty.

**Luke:** Yeah. It's crazy. So, so 

**Brian:** Kenya's not that bad. So the wealthy areas. Are separate, but next to wealthy area is like a ghetto. 

**Luke:** Okay. So, so Kenya, there are, there's a reasonable amount of wealthy people. Oh, there's 

**Brian:** [01:12:00] wealth, like wealth, okay. And you know, as well, the, the wealth there is compounded because labor is generally cheaper.

**Brian:** So here you can be wealthy, but your trades are still expensive. 

**Luke:** The same with China, India a lot of those countries, the labor's cheap. So you end up getting a lot of very focused, wealthier. That's right. Yeah. 

**Brian:** But if you're gonna go anywhere you go, Kenya is where you go. Plus now you have a connection in Kenya, you know, 

**Luke:** I got the hookup.

**Brian:** Literally have the hookup. And, and again, it's, it's like Bali, you know, if you tell somebody you're going to Bali, they're like, oh, I know a good driver. You know, you tell me you're a good Kenya. I'm like, I know the best to a company for you and giving you the same guys. We've used the same guy twice. It's called Peter.

**Brian:** Every time we go, we go with Peter. Why? Because we just like Peter, he's chilled. He handles the kids, but at the same time we were like, oh, we have three kids. Do you have [01:13:00] car seats? He's like, oh, you don't need car seats? We're like no, we want car seats. Know one, my kid was like a year and a half old.

**Brian:** Yeah. It's like barley just like, I just 

**Luke:** hug out the window, they'll be fine. 

**Brian:** You know, but seeing that, I remember talking to my eldest about what poverty looks like. 'cause then you have the guys who ask for money on the side of the streets, and some of them are kids. And for Charlie Charbel, he had never seen that.

**Brian:** So he really, really struggled to understand that why is this kid not in school? Is it holidays like us in Australia? Mm-hmm. And why are they asking me for money? And he is like, dad, should I give them money? I'm like. Yes you can. And then explaining why they're in that position and why he is lucky to have been born in a country like Australia.

**Brian:** To have parents who hassle for him understand that some of the sacrifices that we make not to be there as much as you need [01:14:00] us, is to try and provide for you. Brilliant. Using that experience. Brilliant. 

**Luke:** Brian, 

**Brian:** I can talk for days. I told you Luke, I have stories for you. Yeah, 

**Luke:** well look, I mean, I know that you've got another meeting coming up, otherwise we would we could keep going for hours.

**Brian:** Last parting shot. You know, when I talk about innovation and I'm talking about learning what the industry needs after this, we have this AI and NDS event. Mm-hmm. And essentially what we are doing is we are trying to, I use it a lot, but then I realized that some of my peers, some of my colleagues were not using.

**Brian:** It, but they're not teaching the sector or at least making the teachings available. We have this amazing guy called Jamie Shira. He's like an AI expert. 

**Luke:** Jamie. You all? Yeah. You ad Yes. Okay. 

**Brian:** And he's there. Where else would you find somebody with 25 years experience in machine learning? 

**Luke:** Is that so? Is that what his business does?

**Brian:** Yeah. Inject. Yeah, man. So then, you know, he was, he was kind enough to give us [01:15:00] an opportunity. He's done four sessions with us. Literally just taking people on. These are the risks. This is how you mitigate the risks. Just, and that's part of why I love eo. 'cause that connection is through eo. 

**Luke:** Yeah. 

**Brian:** You know what we should do?

**Brian:** We should do a podcast up in Hawaii. 

**Luke:** Yeah, let's do it 

**Brian:** somewhere funky 

**Luke:** on top of a mountain. You've gotta climb those, illegal stairway to heaven with me. Did I, did you see that? No. So there, there's something called it's called the Stairway to Heaven. So in the eighties it was, I think it was decommissioned in the eighties.

**Luke:** I or it was built in the eighties. I don't know. I did my research. But basically it was built to get to a military base or something base on the top of one of the mountains. And it's, it's basically the stairways that climb a ridge of a mountain all the way to the top. And the government didn't want to pay for the maintenance of it.

**Luke:** So they set, so they shut it down. So it's illegal and it's guarded, but people sneak past the garden and apparently it's one of the most beautiful [01:16:00] hikes you can do in your life. How big is 

**Brian:** the hike? 

**Luke:** Oh God. I'll send you the info. I looked at it when we first booked. Oh, 

**Brian:** you booked for the tour? How do you book for the No, no, no.

**Luke:** When we booked, when I booked flights. Yeah. But, yeah. Um, Maybe I should, I'll release this afterwards, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I think it's like a thousand dollars us fine if you get busted. But I mean, what's that experience worth? I, I've asked it not 

**Brian:** worth a thousand dollars American.

**Luke:** Well, I won't get caught. I'm a pretty fast runner, Brian. I dunno. You know, there is a back way that is legal. Maybe I'll do that, but I haven't been able to convince anybody to come with me yet. So Is it a big hike? Yeah. Is it how many Ks? Oh, it was a while since I, I've looked it, but, but it's a fair bit.

**Luke:** It's a big mountain. You're, you're climbing the ridge of a huge mountain. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's maybe four to six hours round trip. But the problem is it's vert like the stairs are steep. 

**Brian:** Yeah. Be good workout. 

**Luke:** Oh yeah. Oh [01:17:00] yeah. 

**Brian:** So we, we do that on a Sunday. 

**Luke:** Oh. We are doing it. Are we, 

**Brian:** I'm, I'm saying if you want to do it, you do it right before the event, the learning days.

**Brian:** So that you can recover and you can walk for the rest of the trip. 

**Luke:** Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I was gonna do it probably the first couple of days I'm there. Yeah. Yeah. And there's another one there as well. Three peaks, or it's like a three peak hike where you, it's just a walk up and down three mountains.

**Luke:** I don't know if you're, if you're interested, I'll send you all the info after this mate done. 

**Brian:** And then we'll release this episode after and you can tell people how it went. But you know what, we'll record up there. If we do end up, you'll see another podcast up at 

**Luke:** we do a podcast on top. 

**Brian:** And that is called literally, that's how you get busted because that is evidence.

**Brian:** You're literally giving the cops evidence and you did something 

**Luke:** illegal. Maybe we, we will release the footage of us being arrested. 

**Brian:** No, I haven't been arrested yet in Australia. I'm not gonna get arrested in the US 

**Luke:** Have you, how do you explain that? In Australia? What have you been arrested in? Not yet. In Kenya.

**Luke:** A hundred percent. [01:18:00] Yeah. Yeah. Way 

**Brian:** back when, you know, growing up as a teenager anywhere. 

**Luke:** Yeah. Just 

**Brian:** getting up to no good. 

**Luke:** Oh, that's a story for next time. That is 

**Brian:** definitely a story for we can exchange stories on getting busted. 

**Luke:** Okay, thanks. Sounds good. Alright, easy. Thank you Brian, you legend. Thanks man.

**Luke:** Cheers mate.