#17 How Compassion Could Save Your Company with Bruno Cignacco

In this episode of the Curious AF Podcast, Luke sits down Dr Bruno Roque Cignacco  international business consultant and author of The Art of Compassionate Business. Bruno shares how his decades in traditional business strategy led him to a powerful realisation, people-first companies outperform the rest.

They dive into the practical ways leaders can build a more human workplace, think generosity, gratitude, forgiveness, and trust, and how these values can drive real business outcomes like profit, loyalty, and team performance. From handling appraisals and tough conversations to letting go of micromanagement, Bruno unpacks how to embed compassion into your culture without losing your edge.

He even challenges the way we see competitors, arguing that an abundance mindset can fuel collaboration, not just rivalry.

Whether you’re leading a small team or scaling a fast-growing business, this one will change how you think about leadership, culture, and success.

Key Takeaways: 

• Why compassion in business isn’t just ethical—it’s profitable
• How to build psychological safety and trust in teams
• Practical policies for embedding kindness into company culture
• Measuring compassion: can it be done?
• How to compassionately fire someone
• Shifting from scarcity to abundance mindset with competitors
• The link between fear and micromanagement

Guest Bio: 

Dr Bruno Roque Cignacco (PhD) is an international business consultant, TEDx speaker, author, and researcher with over 30 years of experience advising companies on international trade, marketing, and human-centred leadership. As a university lecturer and Senior Fellow of the UK’s Higher Education Academy, Bruno blends academic insight with real-world strategy to help organisations lead with empathy and purpose. He specialises in compassionate business practices that boost both wellbeing and performance.

Bruno’s latest book, The Art of Compassionate Business (Second Edition), explores how kindness, trust, and connection can drive sustainable success - Get a copy here.

ABOUT CURIOUS AF PODCAST

Curious AF is the evolution of what started as The Hard Stuff Podcast. Initially focused on guests who’d done hard things—ultra marathons, building businesses, overcoming personal challenges—it’s now becoming a broader platform to explore anything and everything I’m genuinely curious about.
The new direction is more personal and wide-ranging. I want it to feel like a space where I can follow my curiosity and have real conversations with people who inspire, challenge, or fascinate me.

For further information, contact:
Podcast Host - Luke Biermann
General Inquiries: hello@curiousaf.com.au
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Transcript

**Luke:** Bruno Cignacco, thanks for coming on the show.

**Bruno:** Thank you very much for your invite, Luke. I feel very honored to be here. Thank you.

**Luke:** Thank you. So I wanted to talk about your, your latest book, which I can see in the background there, the Art of Compassionate Business. So I'd love for you to just start with, I guess, why you wrote the book and, and the core message behind it.

**Bruno:** Very interesting story is for a long time, for more than 30 years, I have been acting as a consultant and advising companies on traditional business topic like a strategy tactics, how to develop a meaningful negotiation with suppliers, with buyers. And also, I wrote a book a while ago more than. 20 years ago on international marketing, a traditional book of strategy, international marketing strategy.

And also I have been acting as a professor for more [00:01:00] than 30 years. Also teaching traditional business models such as strategy tactics, also business management and others. And a few years ago, I would say around seven years ago I saw an article in the Harvard Business Review published there.

That was the Human Moment, human Moment, or the Human Moment at Work. And in that article, it got me a bit intrigued because in that article they were talking about non-traditional business topics. For example, how to develop strong relationship with your colleagues at work, how to develop meaningful communication where you can connect to others on a mental and emotional level.

And can, you can make this relationship at work more robust and long term oriented. And I was a bit intrigued because the article was very insightful, but I wanted to know more. This is the, the inquisitive spirit of, of knowing more. And I started researching on this topic, [00:02:00] the importance of relationship in business, the importance of developing a meaningful workplace where people feel understood uh, appreciated and the knowledge.

And I found a lot of research on topics such as generosity in business, gratitude in business, forgiveness in business, the importance of a meaningful mission, which include economic aspect, but also social impact and environmental impact. And I started devising the idea of uh, developing and writing a book that took a bit of time, nearly three years, the first edition, on how you can develop a business model where you can be profitable.

This, this mean that you can achieve this economic objective. Profitability, productivity, higher market share customer loyalty, but also at the same time developing a strong, long-lasting relationship with stakeholder [00:03:00] based on win-win agreements where the company wins and customer win, the company wins, employee wins too.

And also developing a, a mission for example, as a company that bring about not only. Tangible, economic, but also bring up a positive change in the world. I found a lot of example of company that met this requirement, and I found a lot of research studies, science-based research studies that corroborated the fact that company that are more human oriented is mean that they care for people, human beings such as customers, employees, suppliers, community members, and at the same time also try to achieve this economic objective.

It tend to be more successful, tend to have a much more psychologically safe. Work environments, workplaces, but also tend to have much a better reputation and better long-term sales, and also reduction of cost. [00:04:00] And this company also tend to attract more talented employees and high quality investor. And this was con then safety.

All this idea were condensed in the first edition of my book, published by Religiou, the Art Compassionate Pieces published before the pandemic. And then we, what? We know what happened during the pandemic. All this shock that we, all of us suffered to different extents. And the publisher asked me after the pandemic, the, the, was in my mind to develop a second edition of this book.

That include more cases more example, more science-based studies, but also including other topic that I didn't, I include in the first edition, such as the importance of trust in business, the importance of compassionate leadership among others. And I felt very compelled with this offer. Also, obviously this book was, the second edition was publish in 2023 and include more than 400 pages, [00:05:00] which are accompanied by the latest research studies.

But at the same time with a lot of example, more than 400 example of company from different sector, small and side companies, big companies, company from the manufacturing sector, from the service sector, and companies that are well known and some company that are not, not well known, but. The commonality of all these companies that they can be bringing about positive change in the world and they can certify very clearly the, the needs of these stakeholders.

Not only the economic needs, but the emotionally. They can appreciate, they can recognize this stakeholder, but also they can nurture this relationship over time and they can brighten this relationship over over time. So this mean that these companies, main, main assets are the relationships, the network of relationship, but the company have has, and these relationship [00:06:00] are the ones that have the company achieve these economic objectives such as profitability, productivity, market share, sales.

So this is was a very interesting journey and obviously when I wrote this book, we, I have a consultancy company. We started a training companies on these topics and we observe that. At the beginning, there is a bit of resistance because companies are more traditional and in many cases very conservative, and they're more focused on profit, less gimme the tangible result.

I don't want to know anything about relationship. We are here to make money. We're here to sell more products, more services. But when they understood the connection between these economic objectives and the most important asset that any company has, that is a human being relationship, strong relationship with customers, suppliers, employee, community members.

This company took this training [00:07:00] on board.

**Luke:** Yeah. Interesting. So. You did slightly touch on this, but I'd, I'd like you to dive a bit more deeper into the, i, I guess the motivation. Is it purely an ethical motivation or is there more performance based outcomes that will come from this as well

**Bruno:** On a personal level or on a level of a company.

**Luke:** on a business level? Right. So let's say you're talking to a business donor, let's say like, like, like, like myself, right? So, why should I be compassionate in a business? Is it just purely from ethical motivations or will I actually, will my company perform better in the long term?

**Bruno:** Totally, totally. Is the second, the second answer that you gave this. When there is, I give you an example. When you support employees in the workplace, you are kind to them. You are supportive, you are appreciative for their contribution. You are overtly appreciative, means that you can, for example, [00:08:00] write thank you notes or you can give them bonus, or you can recognize an in public event like employee of the month or the most meaningful contribution to this company's project.

You made them feel that they count, they made them feel that they're valued, and you create what the expert call a psychologically safe workplace where employees feel supported. They want to remain in the company, and they feel that they're valued and they're contributing in a meaningful way to the company's mission.

These workplaces that are safe, employees do not feel so much stress. They feel supported by other colleagues, and they are also willing to give their own views, even is not the traditional view of the company. They, they're prone to give their ideas in providing the company with insightful ideas, innovative ideas.

These psychologically say, well, please, according to research very clear research uh, tend to have higher employee satisfaction, higher customer satisfaction. [00:09:00] Why? Because employees that are happy, they feel at least they feel that they belong to the company, they feel supported by this company tend to serve customer more effectively.

Why? Because employee happy, make customer happy. It's a very clear correlation. But also this workplace tend to have lower absenteeism, lower turnover, which implies reducing costs. Because if you have a lower turnover, you don't have to hire. Continually new people. And lower representation implies that people are, most of the time at work, they don't get ill.

They don't have medical bills to be paid by the company or themselves because they got ill, but also lower stress level. You know that stress is very important. And if you take this to the stream, this can lead to burnout, lower burnout. And this bring about a positive impact on the bottom line, which mean profits.

So this mean that employees, when they feel at ease, they're less prone to adopt what the expert call the freeze five fly mode, where they, they, they [00:10:00] are feeling threatened, they feel defensive, they feel like reactive. And when these employees are feeling stress and under stress, lots of stress, distress, negative stress, and they're feeling in this, they're adopting this free five fly mode.

This employee tend to be less creative, less innovative, and less productive because they tend to be reactive, defensive. They are focusing only what is threatening instead in this psychologically safe workplace. Well, of course, employee feel at ease. They feel relaxed. They there is more trust. This workplace tend to be trust based.

And when there is more trust, according to reserve two there is there are lower transaction costs means that people are not guiding direction only based on what is written on contract that need to be abide, abide by. But there only really aware of the contract. But instead, they're trying to share resources.

They try to work in a competitive way. They tend [00:11:00] to participate in showing projects. Why? Because trust based workplaces tend to bring about more meaningful communication, more productivity, more proneness to creativity and innovation. So this mean that. Why so important? Because for a simple law that is come from sociology and social psych psychology, that is the law of reciprocity.

When you treat people in a kind way, not because you want to be ethical, because you care for them, you try to support them, you try to be appreciative. These people care for you in red return, so they tend to reciprocate. They tend to act alike. Instead, when you dismiss them, supposing that you treat employees in a very dismissive way, you don't recognize their achievement, their contribution, you make them work over time without any recognition.

You take them for granted, never saying thank you to them. Well, this employee feel not valued, not appreciated. And they tend [00:12:00] to withdraw, tend not to cooperate. They tend to treat you in a dismissive way too. They tend to reciprocate, but in a negative way. The same happened with customer. There is an interesting research study on customer and the importance of delight because we talk about employee, but this applied to any other stakeholder.

In the case of customer, most company go to the basic or bare minimum. I see I'm a marketer by nature and I observe horrible mistakes of companies and especially here in the uk, but I saw in other countries. That company that don't meet the bare minimum, the basic need of customer. I give you an example.

I'm half Italian, and in the past, I'm not drinking caffeine nowadays, but in the past I used to drink a lot of caffeine, but wasn't very good. I like cappuccino, and now I yeah, I am drinking now Decaffeinate, the cappuccino. But in the past I was drinking the traditional cappuccino, and I went to one of these stores, the the coffee shop chains [00:13:00] that we all know that are all over the world.

And I went there and I asked for a, a cappuccino. And the waiter told me, we will go to the table. Don't worry. We'll bring the cappuccino. They brought the cappuccino 15, 20 minutes later, later. And when I, when I, I was drinking, the cappuccino was cold. I didn't complain. I left the company, I went to the competitor another big chain. And I went there and I, I asked them the same, similar price generally here in London that a bit overpriced is cappuccinos. But and they brought the cappuccino. One minute later I turned the cappuccino, was very hot, very savory, but I noticed that the waiter forgot the tray with biscuits on the table.

I said, sorry, sorry. This is a mistake. I didn't order this. No, this is not a mistake. This is for you, for you to enjoy the cappuccino. This is a gift from our company. Now look at the difference. The first one couldn't even meet. [00:14:00] This is the common case. The first one. That is the common case. Most companies in the market couldn't meet the bare minimum.

This means bringing a cappuccino quick and hot. And the second company delighted me. Delighting marketing means exceeding customer needs, not only satisfying, exceeding, surprising them in a positive way. President has to observe that when companies like customer, this means that they're not thinking about the themselves, their sales, their, their, their cost, their profit.

They're thinking about customer, how can we add value to this customer? How can we make their life easier, more simple? In this case, they basically were very nice because they were a very nice marriage with the cappuccino. Well the, when company delight customer, they tend to have a more proudness of this customer coming back to this company and becoming loyal and leave more positive reviews.

So this mean that loyalty and commitment from [00:15:00] customer uh, can be triggered by this experience of delight. So what we are serving in the marketplace is the opposite. Most of the company are related to the first example can. Meet the basic needs of customer and they cannot build a relationship with customer.

So they're, they're treating customer in a dismissive way. And what do you expect the customer to cooperate? No, of course. The first company that I went, I left negative reviews because, and I never went back to this company, the second company that brought me the biscuits, cappuccino on time. Well, I keep on going to this company up to now for many years.

So this is important. So this has a very tangible effect on profit, on sales, on the company's. It's not only that you are behaving well and you are good with people, but will be nice uh, reason. But it's not only this, it has a very tangible economic impact on the company's activities, operation, [00:16:00] transaction.

So that is very visible and also has a very positive impact on the company reputation because. You have many social media platform. You have, for example, some social media platform that a customer can leave reviews and and some social media platform where employees can leave reviews. For example, Glassdoor platform where employees can leave their reviews about their company.

If the company think about only profits and they don't care about employees, customer, these stakeholder are very prone to leave negative reviews all over internet about this company's product, this company attitude. And this will push other potential talented employees from working for this company.

They will prevent them from working from this company and also prevent other potential customer to come and test the product of this company. So this mean that this is kind of common [00:17:00] sense. But is based on a principle that is fundamental beside the principle of reciprocity that I mentioned before. And I elaborate this principle more in the book.

The other principle that is important is the principle of interdependence. You cannot succeed in business without customers, without employees, without any other stakeholders, but you cannot force them to cooperate with your company. You can only allow them to cooperate with your company, and they're more prone to do so when you satisfy their needs, when you care for them, when you're respectful, when you're supportive, when you're appreciative to them, they're more prone to cooperate.

Why? Because they feel indebted with your company and they're more prone to act alike. So these two principle interdependence and reciprocity are intertwined because. Interdependence is important. No company can succeed on its own. And the most important asset for any company is the human [00:18:00] being. No artificial intelligence, no technology, not money, not information of the human being.

When you care for the human being, all other resources are taken care of. And at the same time, when you care for people, these people tend to care for you. So this mean that you're caring for them and in return they will care for you. And creating a positive cycle, you are generous to them. They're generous with their reviews, you are appreciative with to them, and they're appreciative with living very nice life.

**Luke:** Interesting. I'd say I, I wanna talk about a, I guess, a practical implication of this, right? So let, let's talk about my company. So I have 12 staff. I know every single staff member by name, very close. I act in a very compassionate way towards them. Now, that is potentially through selfish motivation, right?

So because I have to spend every day with these guys, I want a positive work environment. I believe a good life is more than just wealth creation. I, I want to have strong [00:19:00] relationships with the people that I hang out with. But I have 12 staff. I have friends with 60 staff, and they know 10 of them, and they don't know.

Let's say 50 of them, right? So I guess my question is, as my company scales, how do I bake compassion into it once I start losing that personal relationship? And, and I guess the selfish necessity of wanting to live in a perfect environment, right? So I think one of the issues that happens is as the company gets larger and larger, the leadership lose connection to the people on the shop floor.

And that's when compassion starts to disappear. Do you know what I mean? So as a company goes from, let's say my company 12 to 20, 50, a hundred, how do I bake compassion, I guess, into the bones or the core of the business? Does that make sense?

**Bruno:** It makes sense, makes sense. But we have to understand that there are things that are incompatible with compassion. And one of the most [00:20:00] important thing that I observe in a small companies and big companies that is very incompatible, this mean, almost the opposite, is fear. Regardless of the size of the company.

If you are a small company or a big company and you infuse fear in the workplace and how you can infuse fear, well, for example, micromanaging is a way of controlling that is many cases could be fear based. For example, when you try to control any step of employees and they don't act correctly, you penalize and you are waiting for the moment for them to make a mistake and penalize them.

I'm not de saturating. There are many companies in the marketplace that are working this way, and they believe that pressurizing employees to the limit will make them more effective. And on the contrary, this employee might feel more stress. More fearful. So we have to understand that first. So we have to monitor the company regardless of the size to see there are any pockets or areas of fear.

What are the different type of fear that I observe as a [00:21:00] consultant? Fear of being fired, fear of being penalized, fear of being outpaced by colleagues. Fear of, of sharing resources, fearing of rocking the boat, for example, should I propose and in an innovative idea or should I, or this will be a challenge for the management team I.

So I will be ridiculed. Well, when there is fear, there cannot be psychologically safe workplace, and we, we saw that this is very important for employee to feel at ease, less stress, more ed, but also satisfying customer need more effectively because employee that feel at ease feel that they're contributing a meaningful way.

They're more prone to serve customer more effectively and delighting customer. But also are there any policies where the employees and staff members can treat each other in a respectful way? What are example of policy that are compassionate compassion driven? For example, are there any policies where [00:22:00] employees, I see company, I give an example of a non-compassionate company.

Some companies have so many meetings during the day that the employee don't have time to talk to their colleagues having a snack or having a small lunch. So, and. Actually pressurized. And this employee, not only they cannot meet the deadline or multitasking or they are juggling with different project in a very ineffective way, but also they cannot connect to their colleagues in a meaningful way to support each other, to compliment their skills.

This is the incremental to any company. So companies should give this spaces and time slot for employees to connect to one another where they shouldn't be talking about business topic. They should connect to one another on a personal level beyond their role, and they can know each other in much more human way, and then they can go back to work much more revitalized.

Some companies go even to the extreme. They say, no, we don't want only some time [00:23:00] slot during the day for employees to connect and relax, chill loud, and connect to other. We want one event a week at the end of the week that is not compulsory, but most employee will agree that it's a nice idea. After work, let's say Friday afternoon after work, employee can meet outside the workplace from all areas and all different hierarchies within the, the, the company, the CEO, the, the customer office officer, customer service officer they commit each other.

They can have dinner. They can share their personal experiences. Regarding their lives. They can share their hobby, they can share their fear, their approach, their dreams, aspiration. Reer has shown that these social events are revitalizing when employees feel a lot of pressure because of multiple project and meaningful deadlines when they have this event regularly, not only near Christmas, some company do this only [00:24:00] once on a regular basis, and these employees know each other beyond the role because the, the, the person is.

Bigger than the role, and they can connect to one another on a mental and emotional level, like the article in the Harvard Visa review, and they can go back to work much more revitalized. Then the, they also learn from colleagues and they're more prone to build trust-based relationship with these employees.

But also this is, this will be an example of some policy that the company can implement. But in many cases, what I observe, some companies are very strict, very strict and very tight with the, for example rules. Well, okay, employee need to arrive at this time. Okay, but what happen if the employee has a problem at home or has a problem, health problem with the dependent?

Can we be flexible? Do we have institutionalized like the idea of a compassionate leave? Time, for example, employee have to care for the [00:25:00] dependent. Can we allow this employee to work flexible time? So take some time off for this employee. Well, I see some company that street and they do not allow employee to lower their productivity for any reason, even for personal reason like health or family issues and so on.

Some company go even beyond this. I, I have some consultancy company here in the UK that go beyond and offer employees, especially when they feel challenge because of mental issues, emotional issues. They offer counseling session free for this employee to take in some cases are offsite and this employee can pay by the company where the employee can.

Make some catharsis and comment about their personal problems and be understood, supported by a professional that is paid by the company. These are few example where the company can take into account [00:26:00] the, the human side of employees and not only treat employees like a machinery. Because what I see that the, the model that most companies have is the employee need to be productive at all time.

This is, we're paying for them to produce, to be pro productive. And this is like a robot. They cannot ever stop. And they, if there is a piece that is broken, we have to replace this piece being it's in case cases, getting rid of this employee and hiring new ones. This doesn't work this way because we're all human beings.

In some cases, we are affected for it by issues that are outside our control. Outside work and company that are compassionate. Take into account this, this aspect, not only the economy paying a good salary. But also the social needs, the, the emotional need, mental needs this mean that they treat employees as a real human being, a flesh and bone human being, and not as a piece of machinery within the company.

**Luke:** Interesting. Yeah, so look, I'm a big fan of the [00:27:00] saying, what, what, what gets measured, gets managed, or what gets measured gets done, right? So, we run company. So we run company KPIs, we run a weekly scorecard. We've got efficiency numbers for staff. Can we do a similar thing? I I, is compassion in business measurable or is it more of an art?

Right? So like, how do I know when I'm hitting compassionate scores, I guess is

**Bruno:** Okay, okay.

**Luke:** And other than basically, I mean, we currently do it, do it do a staff,

**Bruno:** There is a,

**Luke:** do you know what an NPS is? Net promoter score. We currently do a staff NPS, which, which is a net promoter score. It's basically a score out of 10.

How much would you recommend working in this company? And, and I get that on a quarterly basis from staff. But is there anything else I can be doing? Is there any other, other way to manage whether I'm succeeding at a compassionate standpoint?

**Bruno:** Yes, yes. Well, the, I want to mention a very interesting [00:28:00] quote from a famous thought leader that adopts her. Not everything that can be counted count, and not everything that count can be counted. And it's a very interesting thing because not all things that can be measured are relevant and not all thing that are relevant can be measured in simple words.

So this means that

in practice, 

it very, very difficult, very difficult to, to grasp this concept because in business, most of the things are focused on the quantity that speak of business, market share, productivity, sales. But there. These are what we call a quantity, the aspect of pieces. But then we have what we call the qualitative aspect of they cannot be measured precisely.

They cannot be measuring with figure. You cannot compare interally like you compare, share, share, market, share, or sales or productivity. But these are qualitative aspect of business, such as compassion, gratitude, generosity. Can you measure generosity? Can you measure compassion? [00:29:00] Very difficult to measure in a precise way as you do with sales or market share, but this non-quantitative aspect, this qualitative aspect, are fundamental to build this strong relationship with the stakeholder that will help you achieve the quantitative aspect.

This mean that when you focus. Primarily, I will say, eh, predominantly on qualitative aspect of this, this mean that you take a leap of faith and say, you know what? I cannot measure generosity, but I know that generosity beget generosity. Gratitude. Be gratitude. More gratitude and kindness beget more gr kindness based by based on research studies.

When I focus on quality, the aspect of business with that cannot be measured precisely. You build a strong relationship with these stakeholders, and in return, these stakeholders are more prone to contribute spontaneously without you forcing them. To this quantitative aspect of this, we saw when you treat customer in a kind way, can [00:30:00] you measure kindness?

When you treat customer in a kind way, very difficult, no, you cannot measure. But when you treat them in a kind way, they're more prone to lead positive reviews, which will bring about more potential customer. Instead, when you treat them in a very low quality way. So the way this customer will leave negative reviews and this will push other potential customer away.

So this mean that there is a very serious tendency in business of. Focusing on young quantity data for business because obviously we're pressurized by the economic result, economic outcomes, but we have to understand that the economic outcomes are only part of the equation. Because we focus only on the economic outcomes, we can.

Many companies can pursue this economic outcomes by all means. To the extreme. The, the to the extreme will be exploiting employees because we don't care for them. We care for the outcome or [00:31:00] polluting the environment or for example, deceiving customer or developing win lose agreement with supply.

If we focus solely on this ative aspect without caring for the relationship, and when talking about relationship, we're not talking about one of interaction. We're talking about long-term mutually beneficial relationship with the stakeholder, where the needs of both party, the company, and the stakeholder are fully met.

When we focus on this long-term relationship, sustainable relationship over time these stakeholders, as we mentioned, they tend to reciprocate. They tend to support us, they tend to trust us, they tend to recommend us. So, so this is counterintuitive because at the end, many people wrongly believe that the most important factor in businesses.

Kind of technology or information now artificial intelligence. And I have to argue that this is not the right approach, the most important resource I will call asset in business today, in [00:32:00] the past and in the future. Not only near future, but far away. Future will be the human being. Because the human being is a meta resource.

It's a resource that generate information, generate new products, generate new services, generate new strategy, new business model, new way of distributing the product, new way of promoting the product, and so on. So it's a meta resource, it's a resource above all other resources and help the company create a value for all stakeholders when we treat the most important resource or asset, the human being as they deserve in a supportive, caring way, respectful way.

This company has unlimited growth. Why? Because this stakeholder will be very willing, will be eager to support this company because they feel connected. They feel that, that they are making a meaningful contribution to this company. They don't do this out, out of altruism, but they're doing this because they feel related.

There is [00:33:00] a concept of relatedness with this company, connectedness with this company, and this is quite important and this is what, if some companies are missing the point in the way that we need to focus on the relationship. To strengthen this economic indicator, this economic indicator don't come out of the blue, like, like the rain from the sky.

They come from people that are helping us achieve our objectives in a, in an interdependent way. They're helping us achieve our objective, and we are helping them achieve their objectives. We're helping customer achieve their objective. Employees meet, meet their objectives, a community member, and so on.

So, a relationship in life and in business is a concept that I, I knew from my teenage years can only succeed with the needs of both party are fully met. When one of the party feel that they have been deceived, that they have been dismissed, they have been left aside, that they have been taken advantage.

The [00:34:00] relationship in business as in life, tend to break up. Why? Because people don't want to feel. Cheat. The people don't want to feel deceived or manipulated. So it's important to nurture this relationship on a regular basis. And you don't do this one off, but you do like a what's in a plan on a regular basis.

Caring for employees, caring for the community, not only to look good on the income statement or in the balance sheet, or the CSR report, but because these are the most important assets of the company, the, the human beings will help you grow. If you support them on a regular basis, they help you grow and they will support you in a, in return.

**Luke:** So, so I'll just give it, like, say from a practical standpoint you know, my company's quite small, comparatively But it can feel like sometimes let's say, a good analogy I like to use is, it feels like you're standing in a hurricane or a tornado, right? So as the [00:35:00] company gets bigger, there's so much going on.

That it, it's extremely difficult to manage and it, and, and you feel like you're losing control. And I would argue that a lot of these KPIs or, or points of measurement, they're not purely about economic growth of everything else. It's, I guess it's a, it's, it's a method of getting some clarity while standing in a storm, right?

So, okay. So from my perspective, I, I love everything you're saying. I agree with all your arguments about compassion business. I want to implement it, but how do I put it into the company, right? So if I can't do it through KPIs, if I don't have hard numbers. The only other way I can think about implementing it on a company level, I guess, would be in the company's core values, vision, purpose, and I guess what I communicate as a CEO throughout the company.

So it sounds like from a practical standpoint, it's all about [00:36:00] communication. That this is the way we do business, both communication to my employees and communication to all my stakeholders. I guess it just needs to be a focus on the, on, on the comms department. I mean, does that kind of resonate with you?

**Bruno:** Resonate. But I want to give you a more specific example. Communication is very broad, and I agree that this about communication, respectful communication, supporting communication. But let's put on a practical level. For example, let's talk about feedback that is very important. Employee appraisal in the workplace that is important is related to these indicators.

What I observed

that employee appraisal that,

**Luke:** I just did all my appraisals this week, so that'll be good. Let's do it.

**Bruno:** Oh, well be good to know. Okay. Well, so what I observed that in practice most of the companies conduct this employee appraisal in a very fear driven way. This mean that the focus on what didn't work well and the highlight is in a negative way, for example.

[00:37:00] The employees this employee are talking to the employee. You haven't met the last goals for the semester. So, and you are focusing on the mistake. You word all the feedback in a negative way. You focus on the mistake. Instead, companies that are compassionate, they take the same idea, but they work in a positive way.

It's not only changing the world, but how you work in a positive way. So instead of focusing on what didn't go well, you focus on what can be improved. you unfold a field of possibility. You say, eh, you know what, eh. First of you highlight the positive ask because this employee, you say, you know what?

You have been very supportive. You have been working over time. We appreciate your commitment. You highlight, start with a high note, but then you start highlighting thing that can be improved. You don't word them as mistake, you word them a thing that can be improved because you give the chance for this employee to improve, to develop their skills.

And you say, you know what? For the next semester, [00:38:00] we want the objectives to be met in this way and this way and this way. What is your view on this? You share, you made this participant, what is your view on this? You don't only try to command controlling too much control in a company is counterproductive.

So you, you say, what is your view? We have some ideas to share with you. This ob, this objective need to be met in this way for the future semester. What about providing you with some coaching or some training on this area? I feel that you can develop your natural skill to connect to customer, and we can offer you some training courses for you to improve your customer service skills.

But also you can, we can offer you some coaching and some mentoring. You think about the importance of this employee improving and enhancing their skill and developing your skills, but also you, you also give a a very important and adopted attitude of supportiveness. Many companies use this [00:39:00] statement that some will take notes of this.

It is based on research studies. We have very high expectation about your performance, and I'm sure that you are capable of meeting this expectation. So first off, you assume that they're capable of meeting this expectation. This is in psychology called the Pygmalion Effect. When you have positive assumption about someone, this person feel empowered, encouraged, they don't feel penalized.

They feel that they, there is a field of possibility for them to participate and fall and, and go through. And when you say that they're capable of doing this, these employer are more prone to take on board your suggestion, for example, coaching, mentoring, but also this feedback. When you provide the feedback you, you explain why this change is important.

So this means that the feedback should be future oriented instead of being past [00:40:00] oriented. Future oriented means you focus on the possibility for the future. Obviously you are referring in directly to the mistake, but you don't call them mistake. You call them as possibility for change. But also you offer them support.

You offer them support, and you are trusting them throughout the process and you are providing them with support. This show in practice, I saw many cases company that were using the wrong way of providing feedback with the right way means it's not only changing the world, but one is fear based. You are focusing on the mistake and penalizing you didn't meet.

Okay? Mm. Be careful with this. Mm. You, you don't say you might be fired, but the employer feel, be fearful and the other. Attitude that is more future oriented, change oriented and focus on supportiveness and providing this employee with a lot of hope because you have positive expectation about it. This change the whole dynamic because this employee will feel less fearful or not fearful at all.

They will feel [00:41:00] supportive. They're less prone to feel less stress. Why? Because you are supporting them throughout the process. And so when you support this employee, you are bringing, you are brightening this asset, this employee, you are brightening this asset and are more prone to do their best go, go the extra mile.

But a very important point. You mentioned control. I agree that things need to be monitoring the company, but another point that help company become more compassionate is. Eliminating, and I want to say not reducing, eliminating, micromanaging. Micromanaging is non-compassionate. What is, can, can we give an example of micromanaging?

Micromanaging is fear-based because it's controlled based on fear. A micromanaging mean that you treat employees like naughty children. You, you treat employees like naughty children. You don't delegate, you don't trust that they will do things correctly because you want to be in every, if you are the CEO, you are the, the general manager.

You want to check [00:42:00] that everything is okay and you don't trust anything and you are hanging with and juggling with different project because you want to check that everything is, and they have to ask you for authorization, even to buy a pencil, to, to write a note. You give general direction guidelines what will be not micromanaging.

You give general guidelines. You are available if they need support, coaching, mentoring, training. But you trust that they will do their best according to their experience, according to their skills, and according to their capability. Can they make mistake? Well, we're all human beings. Their possibility to make a mistake is it's there.

But if you are continually controlling, you don't allow them to be productive. You don't allow them to unleash their potential, and you don't allow them to give their best because they're feel, they're feeling continually fearful and continually monitored. You don't, you don't meet their need for autonomy.

Autonomy means you gimme the direction. And I, I will choose the [00:43:00] best way to do this according to my experience. Because for the reason I have been hired, it's not why I have been hired if I have to be in control like a little baby, every single step. So this is so basic that I see that some companies do not apply this.

And this is so fundamental because if you eliminate micromanaging, there will be a much more relaxing workplace, but not relaxing. Like everyone is lazy or laid back. Relaxing in a way that people will be less stressed and more focused, more concentrated, and they will have their mental skills, especially the creative and critical analysis skill, more enhanced.

Why? Because they're not continually fearful. Oh, did I do wrong or right? Or, they're controlling me, they're following me. they're monitoring my shadow. So you have to create a workplace. And this could be very interesting, that is reducing the stress level to the minimum. So where people can, at least this their [00:44:00] mental, mentally skilled, they're creative, skilled, they're innovative ideas, can.

Be unleashed in a much more meaningful way and people are not feeling fearful. So, and people are feeling that they're treated, that other people that they are, and so they're feeling more confident, more capable, more proactive. They can even suggest new idea supposedly, that you gave the direction and you allow them to do their own way.

The employee might come back to you and say, you are the manager, and will tell you, you know what, ah, I, I understood your direction, what you think. If we, I have an, an innovative idea what you think. If we do this, this way, they are more open to share their ideas. And because there is a psychologically safe workplace where people feel supported, they fulfilled, cared for, and they feel trusted because when you trust people.

They're more prone to trust you when you are continually micromanaging them. Why they say they're not trusting me. Why I will trust this, this manager, because they're not [00:45:00] trusting me at all. And also, I feel fearful. I feel stressed. I'm not sure I'm paid the good salary here, but I'm not sure if I work here because I want to work here because I feel that they're not appreciated.

My skill are not appreciated. They're continually controlling me. Control has a positive connotation and negative connotation most companies using in a negative way. I say, oh, controlling because you are not capable, or I have to control you because if I link to your own devices, you will do whatever.

Well, so you are not hiring the right employee. Maybe you have to check the

process more carefully because if you don't trust them, why you hire them? Well, you cannot take over everything. And when company get bigger, delegation is even more important because imagine the CEO of a Hilton or or any other big chain, a controlling, okay, let's see.

Oh, this, well, or this person is stay in the hotel. They, they trust, they delegate the trust and they grow because they care for people in a way that they allow them to meet their autonomy needs. I [00:46:00] am self-reliant. I have been given the direction and I know how to do things the best way. How to do then what tool to use according to my experience and expertise.

These are practical way to be compassionate.

**Luke:** Yeah. That resonates. Right? So one of my favorite sayings is a lack of confidence killed more Dreams than a lack of competence ever did. Right? And, and what that's getting at is. The thing that's holding most people back is confidence. It's not competence. Right. And I think if we lead with fear or we micromanage, we're taking away confidence and that's gonna hold back performance, if you know what I mean.

So yeah. Yeah. So, so I guess the, the, the next thing I wanted to talk about is the reality is sometimes some people aren't a fit for some companies, right? And they need to be removed. So, so I wanted to talk about how to compassionately fire somebody how to, how to, how to exit somebody who, who's not a good fit for the company, and how do we do that in the [00:47:00] best way possible?

**Bruno:** Very interesting, very interesting. First of most companies take the recruitment process to a way only to check if the employee meet the job specification or not, but I mentioned in the book some company like SPO that go one step beyond. SPO is a company that sell different articles online, for example, shoes and a different type of shoe wear online.

And what this company do, they don't not only take this recruitment process that is quite lengthy in this company. To know with this employee is a good match for their skills, but also they check if this employee embrace the company's values. What are the company's values? Means what the company stand for.

For example, the, some company have the value of sustainability. Well, we look for long-term project where bring a positive change to the world. So, or we customer serve excellent customer service could be another value. [00:48:00] Why is so important? Because in the case of spo, this company that I mentioned in, in the book in the employee feel that the, the, the cannot embrace their value.

The company's paying this employee to leave, to leave the company they amount of money to not to remain in the company they want employee. Honest and honestly say, you know what? We give you a good about amount of money over this first few months, and if you don't want to stay in this company, you feel that it's not the suitable environment for you, you can leave, we'll pay you for this.

Most employee remain even. They have a very interesting offer. Most employee remain. Why? Because. They feel connected to the values they feel supported by the company. In the case of customer service officer, this company trained how this customer service officer can connect to customer in a much more human way without checking if the customer talk to this customer service officer for five minutes and then take [00:49:00] off this customer next to the next customer.

No, they, this company explain to this employee that they can sustain long conversation with customer and nobody will be chasing them. Because what is important is build robust relationship with customer because customer that are happy bring other customer, customer that are not happy, go away and push away other com customer, potential customer.

So this mean that in the recruitment process, we should inform this employee of the values. And we should inform employees, but also that the, the expectation that we have about them, that positive expectation. Also always assuming positive expectation about people that are more prone to you, are more prone to create the self-fulfilling prophecy, positive self fulfilling prophecy, because they're more prone to meet your expectation if you treat them accordingly.

But supposedly that everything goes wrong. You say, you know what? We have to file this employee. This has not been the good employee. We want to be compassionate. And I mentioned an example of for example, in some cases it's because the employees [00:50:00] not a good match. And we discovered this a bit late.

Maybe there was a problem during the recruitment process that we couldn't discover, but. It is late, but in some cases, the company feel compelled in a negative way to fire this employee. Why? Because there are, there is recession or during COVID, for example, many company fired employees because they couldn't sustain their, their business model and they have to downsize.

So they have to cut down personal and many company choose. The first thing to cut down is, for example the cost of employing people. In this, this example when you have to cut down employees because of external factor, the economy going down yourself, going down accordingly to what I have said that many companies refer this employee to other companies.

There was a case here in London, the uk higher education institution, they have to. Shut down. They have to shut down because of economic problems. They have been [00:51:00] taken over by a group and they have to shut down. What this company did, they, they provide this employee with tools, for example, how to write a CV course.

But also they refer to, this was a university and they refer these employees, for example, professor and other employees to other universities that are competing in the same marketplace. Why? Because they didn't want to leave these employees stranded. They have to cut down they have to shut down in this case, and they were referring to other organization.

This mean that they help employees. To be supported by a company. They were referring not only like a recommendation in the cv, no, they were calling the competitors to refer and also arranging meetings, interview, job interview. So it is not compassionate about this compassion. You can say, oh, but they're the competitor.

This company was shut, shutting down. Well, but I saw companies during the COVID period that were referring to other [00:52:00] company, and in some cases, not companies in the same sector, in other sector where employee can apply their skills. Because some skills are applied to different jobs. Now, if you have to supposing that the employee have a bit not valuable way, and they didn't meet the company's expectation you won't, you won't file this employee a agreeing this employee.

You won't, you will be negative or, eh, using negative tone of voice. You will explain what happened and how this, I won't fight this employee at the first mistake. So, as we mentioned, we have to trust employee. That can be improved. Things can be improved, the change can be introduced. If you're fighting at the first mistake, this is not a compassionate fighting because you are not giving the possibility for this employee to unfold their, their capabilities to improve their skill as so, but supposing that you try everything, all the, all the tools possible and you couldn't, the [00:53:00] employee couldn't improve as so well, you explain.

Eh, first of, in the, in the, during the fighting process, you will do in person, you won't send a text or you won't have a video conference zoom with no interaction where people cannot leave their comments. What I see that you see in the media, this looks so bad because only the CEO talking to people and people want to leave their comment that they put the lockdown, the, the comment for people not to interact.

So this is a one way comment issue. You may make two way communication, hearing their views, and you, you express your views and you express during that, this last me last meeting, you expressed what it did correctly to, because they cannot be everything a mistake. So you spread thing that has been done correctly by treating customer, coming every day and so on.

Even the basic ones or they did not have any admonishment during their employment, but also you explain thing that could have been improved, [00:54:00] but. You don't have any chance to do any longer, and you give recommendation also on how they can, if they get a new job, how they can improve for future employment.

So this mean that you give recommendation. So you will, you will recommendation that are suitable for employee. You'll say, you know what? For future employment will be very interesting if you could do this or keep your manager updated with a weekly report like this is you give a little checklist what the employee can carry with, with them and if they have, they're lucky enough to be employed, they can apply this, this will be probably different work environment, different company, in some cases, different sector, but they have some feedback because again, you are providing them with insight about their improvement and even they didn't work well for your company.

You are trusting that they might be applying these tips in future employment. So this [00:55:00] is a, a very interesting approach and again, and also I see many companies interrupt the, the relationship with the employee in a very rude way. I saw company that they put employee box with the belongings outside the, the hall, outside the premises, and they don't allow employee to go to the office if they lock down the email everything.

And this is that this create resentment. We want to finish the relationship on a high note so that the, the employee didn't meet the company's objective. Well, okay. If they feel resentful because you treated them in a negative way, in an aggressive way, in a dismissive way, you lock them down. They didn't allow them to even to check the last email.

Well, this employee are likely to leave in Glassdoor. Very negative review. Even they could have been wrong when working for this company. So we want to always finish on a high note. I, I feel that these are interesting tips that very easy to [00:56:00] apply, especially giving the last bit of value to this employee, providing with some tips for future employment, treating them in respectful way clearly explaining the reasons why, why this need to finish, because the reason should be clearly justified, shouldn't be arbitrary should be very clear and transparent, should be fair because employee, they don't feel treated in a fair way.

They're more prone to resent, get resentful.

**Luke:** Yeah, one of our company's core values is communicate often and honestly always. And yeah, that, that kind of popped into mind when you were speaking. So I guess the next thing I wanted to touch on, right, is I, went through a lot of your material prior in preparation for this interview. A lot of, yeah, a lot of it really resonated, right?

So compassion with employees, compassion with customers. But the one that I struggled a bit with is C, compassion with competitors, right? So, I'd like to [00:57:00] talk briefly about why I should be more compassionate with my competitors.

**Bruno:** Okay. Well, well first uh, I don't like to call the word competitors so much, even it well used in business because when you are competing sound like a sport competition, one win and the other one loses. So this is a zero sum game and in practice, many games in business are not zero sum. They could be games where.

Two or more companies win. Why I don't like to call this other companies in the sector. For example, you have a, let's say a grocery, another grocery shop will be a competitor because create this mentality, this mindset of building others or mongering attitude. So I have to beat others and I have to outpace them.

I have to do better than them. And in practice in, in, in the book, I, I develop very insightfully, a different mindset. The [00:58:00] mindset that I call abundance mindset. When you focus on. Competing. This mean that someone will lose and the other one will win, or someone will win at dispen of the other one.

Losing. But, and this is a scarcity mindset. Instead, when you call other companies, other company, in a very broad term, term, eh, this mean that other company that could have different functions. And then I will explain the function is a much more abandoned mindset because in practice implies that there could be a relationship that are based on win-win agreements, including with other companies in the sector.

Then I will give you some example. So why is so important? Because using a word mongering attitude is generally fear-based. Fear-based. When you are fearing that your competitor will beat you or fearing your, your competitor will take your customer or fearing that your competitor will get first to this market with the new product.[00:59:00] 

You cannot be creative. You cannot be innovative. You cannot be productive because fear and this enhancement of mental skill, like creativity, critical analysis are incompatible. When you are fearful, you tend to focus on the basic, the threat at hand. If you consider other companies as threats, you tend to adopt a defensive attitude, a reactive attitude instead of a proactive attitude.

So the bank mindset is completely different in a way that bring about a much more productivity, more, more much more productive attitude. And we call this other companies, other organization, but what are the function about the organization? They're not competitive. What are their function? Well, I highlighted in my research two main function of this organization that are very important.

This company are, can be considered potential allies or potential partners. And there are many example of partnership that are very successful. Start Alliance is a partnership among different airlines that include [01:00:00] Berlin and so on, that are airlines that are competing in the marketplace for the same passenger, but they develop this alliance.

Why? Because they know that the strengths of being together and complementing each other in a synergistic way bring about a lot of benefits. In some cases, this company share resources. In some cases, the company, for example, they cannot reach destination. This company in the alliance, the other company can cover the root to this.

Destination that cannot be made by the first company. They support one another. And they have been very successful world worldwide, but also using the car manufacturing sector, car manufacturing that they complement one another in aka the share factory, the shared resources, the shared research. So, and also the same in the IT sector.

So, but in other sector too. So potential partners are important and partnership can bring about a lot of benefits. Sharing lowering costs, sharing resources, sharing risks and in some cases providing each other with insightful [01:01:00] ideas. When you focus solely on the role of competitor, you are shutting down the door for this company to become a potential partner.

So this is quite important. The other important function of this company in the marketplace that they don't like to call competitors is, are they our examples, and this is quite relevant. Companies in the marketplace, they're continually checking one another. And when you see companies that are very good in your sector, many companies will lack in, in a very specific way.

You say we'll try to beat this company. They're, they're, they're, they, they, they get much more market share. They have more sale, they have the best customer. Instead of focusing on the points of excellence of this company, what is this company doing differently? How are they adding value differently?

How can we emulate and improve? What the [01:02:00] company does. How can we benchmark this company, our competitor, and improve how this, and I mentioned the example of Google. Google wasn't the first certain team. There was a certaincy before Google, MSN and also Yahoo. There were Certaincy that there were very popular.

But the founder of Google check this certain gene at that moment many years ago, and they say, oh, look at this. They're nice, certain gene, but they're, they're doing very well. But I think that they're a bit cluttered and Yahoo especially. So how can we taking track wood, they're doing well, but also improve.

So this means that you take the. They're doing well as a reference to emulate and you improve. You keep your own touch, your you, you put things from your own angle. You, you show your uniqueness, you show your unique, you take this as a point of reference and you benchmark and then you add your uniqueness.

These are positive example to emulate, but then you have other [01:03:00] company, the marketplace are important points of reference as negative example, not to emulate. So for example, if you see company with a lot of negative reviews on Glassdoor, so I will advise listeners to check the company in their own sector that has the most negative reviews on Glassdoor.

This made employee are complaining. The Glassdoor is a platform. Glassdoor is a platform where employees leave positive or negative reviews about the company that they are working for or they have worked for in the past. It's available worldwide and it's very popular because it's like a. The customer reviews platform, but for employees about their own companies.

So glass stores. Well, if you, you, if you check how these employees in the world company in your sector are talking about their company, what do you do? You check or say, oh, employees are complaining about this. They don't have time to have lunch. Or they're exploited, they're paying pennies. You use a principle that I mentioned in the book that [01:04:00] is the principle of the opposite.

Companies are not giving employees time for lunch. Well, let's give employees our employees time for lunch. Companies are paying pennies and they cannot arrive at the, the end of the month. Let's give a good salary above, above the markets. The, the market average. You do the opposite. You do be a bit costly.

Well, you want to be better than them. So you take the worst of your sector and you do the opposite. And as we mentioned, when you do the opposite, you support employees, not all employees, customers, and all other stakeholder. You bring about a positive cycle of kindness, generosity, gratitude. And this is, you put this stakeholder on a steroid, they will be feeling appreciated, value, they're more prone to come to you.

You will be employing high quality employees, you will be having high quality customer, customer are recommending another customer. So you take what the companies are [01:05:00] doing, not so well, this main thing not to be emulate and you do the opposite. So this mean that this is the best way to take into account the other companies in the marketplace.

This is quite relevant because change the dynamic of the the your own company. With other company in the marketplace. There can be potential partners, but also they can be potential models to emulate. Positive models and they can be negative models to run away from and do the opposite.

**Luke:** So is, is fear the opposite of compassion?

**Bruno:** Well, eh, according to some spiritual, eh, school of thought, fear is the opposite of love. So it's not, eh, eh, lab and hate as many will think, but it's fear and love. Fear is a contractive energy, contractive emotion. It is very important [01:06:00] for our survival and love is an expansive emotion and love. I mentioned in the book that love has some many sub subproducts has compassion, kindness, supportiveness and forgiveness.

So these two energies, fear, contractive energy, and love. Positive energy here. Here we're talking about humanity as problem. You connect to others, you trust them, you support them. You think for their, their, their wellbeing and so on are incompatible. Research has observed a very interesting study, observed that when you have positive emotions, you undo negative emotion.

So this mean that when you are supposing that you are a bit fearful and you start to be more grateful to people, you undo your fear. So you, you that incompatible, they cannot be at the same time. So this mean that positive emotion also has a very important function, eh, that is expanding your mental skill.

[01:07:00] You tend to think more clearly. You have enhance your critical analysis skills. You create, you get more creative and innovative and you connect to other in a much in a trust based way. So very compatible for the reason. When you have, as we mentioned at the beginning, a workplace that is full of fear is very difficult to to work in a, in a compassionate way within these dynamics, you have to first of eliminate the fear whenever possible and introduce proactively policies that foster.

Trust the foster, supporting the for foster kindness, the foster generosity, and gratitude. So these are all sub-product because love from the humility perspective appear to be very broad, but you can put in a much more tangible way. Am am I being grateful to this colleague because they supporting me during this project?

Could I, for example provide them with some for example incentive or give or [01:08:00] advice or technical information in return for their support? So being grateful and being supportive of also being generous with all this company, the coffee shop being generous with me, with the biscuit brought about a positive cycle of generosity.

Why? Because this company then received my generous, positive renewal online, and I keep on going to this company and I spending my money there. So this mean that, to answer your question, yes, this contractive energy. Positive energy are incompatible. when we are aware of this, we don't get driven by the contractive energy, and we are more focused purposefully on the positive energy.

This means that we try to foster the best because we will feel better ourselves too. Not only you will make them other feel better and strengthen that relationship with them, but also you will feel better. You will be when you are feeling grateful, you're expanding your mental skills, your, your critical analysis skills, and you are connecting to other in the, in a meaningful [01:09:00] way.

And you are allowing them also to expand their skills, creative, innovative and critical analysis skills.

**Luke:** Bruno, such an interesting and practical conversation. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

**Bruno:** Thank you very much.