
Curious AF
Hosted by Luke Biermann, Curious AF is a podcast for the endlessly inquisitive. What started as a deep dive into the grit behind hard things like building businesses and running ultra marathons has evolved into a broader exploration of life’s most fascinating questions and experiences. From endurance and entrepreneurship to psychedelics, parenting, spirituality, and everything in between, Curious AF is a space to follow curiosity wherever it leads.
Each episode features candid conversations with people who inspire, challenge, and stretch our understanding of adventurers, thinkers, leaders, artists, and everyday outliers living life with intention. If it’s interesting, we’re into it.
Connect and follow us on socials:
General Inquiries: hello@curiousaf.com.au
Instagram: @curiousaf.podcast
Youtube: @CuriousAFPodcast
X: @curiousaf_pod
Curious AF
#18 The One Mental Shift That Changes Everything with Terry Tucker
In this powerful episode, Luke sits down with former SWAT negotiator, motivational speaker, and author Terry Tucker to explore the hard-earned wisdom that has guided him through cancer, career transitions, and the challenge of redefining success.
Terry shares the four core truths he lives by, principles born not from theory but from lived experience. He unpacks what it means to truly control your mind, how embracing pain builds resilience, and why a life of service brings lasting significance. From powerful stories about Navy pilots and concentration camps to personal lessons in grit and vulnerability, Terry brings depth, humility, and real-life strategies to the conversation.
Whether you’re navigating burnout, chasing goals, or searching for more meaning, this episode offers a roadmap for showing up fully, even when life gets brutally hard.
Key Takeaways:
- The difference between success and significance
- How to take control of your mind (and why it matters)
- Using pain as a tool for personal growth
- Terry’s experience as a SWAT hostage negotiator
- The connection between service, legacy, and fulfilment
- What most people get wrong about resilience
- Cold showers, ice baths, and the mental side of grit
- Why “as long as you don’t quit, you can’t be defeated”
Guest Bio:
Terry Tucker is a former SWAT team hostage negotiator, cancer warrior, and the author of Sustainable Excellence and Four Truths and a Lie. Drawing on decades of experience in law enforcement, athletics, business, and personal adversity, Terry now speaks around the world about motivation, mindset, and living with purpose. Through his platform, Motivational Check, he inspires others to overcome obstacles, embrace discomfort, and live lives of true significance.
Connect with Terry Tucker:
Website: https://www.motivationalcheck.com
Instagram: @sustainableexcellenceauthor
Facebook: Motivational Check
Book: Sustainable Excellence: Ten Principles To Leading Your Uncommon And Extraordinary Life
ABOUT CURIOUS AF PODCAST
Curious AF is the evolution of what started as The Hard Stuff Podcast. Initially focused on guests who’d done hard things—ultra marathons, building businesses, overcoming personal challenges—it’s now becoming a broader platform to explore anything and everything I’m genuinely curious about.
The new direction is more personal and wide-ranging. I want it to feel like a space where I can follow my curiosity and have real conversations with people who inspire, challenge, or fascinate me.
For further information, contact:
Podcast Host - Luke Biermann
General Inquiries: hello@curiousaf.com.au
Instagram: @curiousaf.podcast
**Luke:** [00:00:00] Terry Tucker, thanks for coming on the show.
**Terry Tucker:** Me on, I'm really looking forward to talking with you.
Fantastic. So today I just wanted to talk about
your book that's coming out shortly. Four Truths and a Lie. First, I just wanted to kind of dive into your, your motivation behind writing it. So.
So about five years ago, I, I wrote my first book called Sustainable Excellence and. Almost as soon as, as I released the first book, I kind of felt that there was another book that I needed to write. Sustainable Excellence was a book about success, about how I thought people could be successful. there was kind of another word that also began with the letter S that was sitting back in my mind, and that was significance.
You know, I think success is what we do for ourselves. Significance is what we do for other people. So, I mean, five years later I was like, okay. it was just kind of GNA at me. It's [00:01:00] like, you know, you should write this book. And I was like, eh, I don't know. I don't know. You know, how am I gonna do this again?
and so it was, you know, when you write your first book, you don't know what you don't know. And it's great, you know, 'cause you can just be stupid about it. and it ends up, you get good people behind it and it ends up turning out pretty decent. So this was, this took me a lot longer, a lot more research.
And so it was just one of those things where I knew I was gonna write it, and it was a matter of, okay, just sit down and start writing it. Put one word on a piece of paper and we'll figure out where it goes. took me about a year and a half to write it.
Okay. Fantastic. Yeah, that's so interesting. Hopefully we'll have time to talk about kind of your definition of success. 'cause mine's changed drastically over the years. But let, let's dive straight into kind of the four truths. So what's the first one and uh, what do we need to know about it?
So the, the four truths, I have 'em actually on a post-it note here in my office. So I, I see them multiple times during the day that constantly get reinforced in my mind. The first one is. Is control your [00:02:00] mind or your mind is going to control you. The second one is embrace the pain and difficulty that we all experience in life and use that pain and difficulty to make you a stronger and more determined individual.
The third one I kind of look at as a legacy type of truth, and it's this, what you leave behind is what you weave in the hearts of other people. And then the fourth one I think is pretty self-explanatory. As long as you don't quit, you can never be defeated.
So the first one, control your mind or it, it will control you. I mean, that I instantly dive into, or, or, or think about, I guess mindful mindfulness, meditation, Buddhism, that kind of thing. Is, is that what you're getting at there? Or is there another meaning behind it?
I, I, I mean there, there's really, I mean, not so much a meaning that kind of meaning behind it. I guess it's something that I learned when I was younger. I, I'm, I'm six foot eight inches tall. I, I went to college on a basketball scholarship, but when I was in [00:03:00] high school, I had three knee surgeries, and I remember when I went back playing basketball after those knee surgeries, my, my brain was putting all kinds of negative thoughts into my mind, you know, things like, Hey, you're probably a step slower since your surgeries and coaches aren't gonna be interested in recruiting you.
And I remember thinking, wait a minute, I'm still playing at an elite level, and college coaches are re still reaching out about the possibility of playing for their school. I learned when I was like 15 years old, I needed to control the narrative that was in my mind. And I'll give you an example and I'll use a basketball example.
If you were to take a basketball, go out onto the court and start to shoot, say free throws, there would be, if you could look at your brain under an MRI, there'd be a certain part of your brain that would light up. 'cause that's what you're engaging. The interesting thing, a part about that is if you were to think about taking that basketball, going out on that court and shooting those free throws.[00:04:00]
That exact same part of your brain would light up. So whether you're actually, your brain doesn't know whether you're doing it or you're thinking about doing it. So it was a matter of how do I control all these thoughts? And we have a healthcare organization here in the United States called the Cleveland Clinic, and they do a lot of brain type mind type research, and they estimate that on any given day we have about 60 to 70,000 thoughts.
That pass through our mind, most of which we don't even pay attention to. We have about 3,500 new thoughts every day, and our minds operate at a speed of about a thousand words a minute. Given all those thoughts, your mind can still only hold one thought at a time. Why would you wanna make that a negative thought?
And I think that the problem with most of us, and I'm guilty of this plenty of times in my life, is that we think with our fears and our insecurities, instead of using our minds.[00:05:00]
Yeah, I mean, that reminds me, one of my favorite sayings is a lack of confidence killed more dreams than a lack of competence ever did. And I guess the other one that pops to mind is, I mean, you, you'll see I love quotes. The other one that pops to mind is Henry Ford. Words. I, I, I, I think it was whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't, you're right.
So I guess on a practical level, how do we shift those negative thought thoughts on a daily basis? Right, because it, it, in my experience, it usually just happens naturally. You know, you, you are unconsciously just go to that negative space and you talk yourself out of doing what you want to do. So how do we catch ourselves in that moment and I guess turn it around.
Yeah, you're right. I mean, I think we, we go to the negative. It's sort of our default. It's easier to say no than it is to say yes. And I, I guess think about it this way. Thoughts in and of themselves are neutral. They're arbitrary. They just come in and they [00:06:00] go where we get into trouble. Is when we start thinking about those thoughts and we assign emotions or memories or something like that to those thoughts, then we're feeling really good or we're feeling really down and things like that.
And, and I always like to tell people you've gotta, first thing, if you, you've gotta do is you, you gotta recognize that, that they're there and they're not going to control you unless you allow that thought. To have a memory, to have a feeling, and then all of a sudden you're like, I don't feel good, or I feel great because, because of that.
So how do you control those? I think you just gotta be aware, and I don't think it happens overnight. You didn't get to be negative overnight. You got to a point where you are, I guess, let me say it this way. and I'm gonna tell you a story 'cause I think the story illustrates it better.
When I was in college, I had I went to a military [00:07:00] school in South Carolina, here in the United States, and we had a president one year by the name of James Stockdale. And Stockdale had been a naval aviator during the Vietnam War in the sixties and the seventies, and was actually shot down and spent eight years as a prisoner of war in the infamous Hanoi Hilton.
A prisoner of war camp. He was actually awarded our nation's highest military award, the Medal of Honor for all that he did for prisoner resistance. And I didn't spend a lot of time around him. He was the president of the college. I was just a cadet. But I remember being in an event where somebody said to him, who were the people that survived that brutality, that torture, that abuse?
And this is what he said. He said, let me tell you who didn't survive. He said, it wasn't the big, strong, tough guys who thought that they could handle any kind of abuse or torture. And the next thing he said really surprised me. He said, the other group that didn't survive were the optimists. He said, these were the people that thought they would be rescued or let go by [00:08:00] Thanksgiving or Christmas or Easter.
And he said, when those holidays would come and go and they wouldn't be rescued, they would die of a broken heart. He said the people that survived were the people who understood what they could control and controlled it. And according to Stockdale, that was basically the breathing in their lungs and the thinking in their minds.
Everything else was at the discretion of the enemy. So he, he kind of got to a point where, and and I, I recommend this to people. If they're having that problem, if you're concerned, if you've got an issue, you got a problem that you're dealing with, take a piece of paper, write down everything that concerns you about that issue, about that problem.
Whatev, when you get everything out on the paper, go through and cross out everything that you have no control over. And what you're left with is a list that you can deal with. The rest of this stuff, it's arbitrary. It's out there. There's nothing you can do about it.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I, it reminds me of something Tim Ferris used to talk about a lot called fear [00:09:00] setting, right? Like you, because you're naturally gonna talk yourself out of anything. So if you actually sit down and write out what's the worst that could possibly happen, it's usually pretty easy to look at it and go, well, the worst isn't that bad. And if it happens, I can kind of turn around and fix it anyway. The story you, you, you just spoke about really reminds me of the book by Viktor Frankl, man, search For Meaning.
I'm not sure if you've read that fantastic book and he really speaks about, I guess. The, the problem with some people with hope is they put, yeah, like, like you said, they put a specific time on it.
We are hoping we're gonna get rescued by Christmas or whatever, and when that hits, the hope drops off and, and they're gone. They're done for, so, yeah, and he also talks, I'm sorry, go ahead.
no, please, please.
I was gonna say, you know, he also talks about how, you know, in those concentration camps and for those who've not read Mans Search For Meaning, Viktor Frankl was a, a psychiatrist who was in Auschwitz during the Holocaust in World War ii, and he talks about how [00:10:00] when you lose the will to live, it's almost impossible to get it back.
So that same, I think metaphor applies to anything else. If, if, if you don't think you can do it. You can't, you know, and I always think if I can't see something in my mind's eye, if I can't see me doing something, there's a real good chance that it's never gonna happen because I've gotta be able to sort of visualize what I want to occur.
If I can't visualize it, it's very hard to make that happen.
Yeah, so I guess a practical experience that I've been experiencing. Of the last couple of days comes to mind, right. So, I've been really enjoying podcasting. I, I, I, I get a lot of fun out of it. Get a lot of creativity and I get to kind of express my thoughts. And I've been writing a lot as well, but occasionally, like the negative thoughts get in me and I, I, I just get so self-conscious about releasing it and what people think and, and, and stuff like that. And I, I think. If I [00:11:00] wasn't conscious about, you know, what's happening and how my mind is kind of playing tricks on me I would easily stop. I mean, the stats around podcasting is I think like there's like, you know, 5 million podcasts and the majority of them get to three to five episodes and quit.
And I think that's probably the reason. Yeah. you do this for a living. So let me ask you this question. I mean, you seem like a person who enjoys the grind. And there's podcaster here by the name of oh shoot. His name just went outta my Ryan Hawk and Hawk talks about, and, and he is done maybe 500 episodes. He says, for every hour of content I put out, I put in about 15 hours of reading the person's book, reading their blogs, listening to other podcasts so that I'm able to switch and pivot.
So I guess my question to you is. Do, do you enjoy the grind of podcasting? Do you enjoy the [00:12:00] work that goes into podcasting versus what am I trying to get out of it? Because Hawk always talks about people ask me to help them, and my first question is, why do you want to do a podcast? And if they tell me they wanna make more money, they want to grow their audience, they want to get on bigger stages, he said, I won't help 'em.
Because if they don't tell me they like the grind, it's awful hard to be successful as a, as a podcast host.
No, look, I, I love the grind. Look, the, the problem is I have too many balls up in the air, so I, I don't necessarily, give them all the required attention they have. So I'm trying to drop off other aspects of my life so I can give more attention to it. The, the, the other reason I love the podcast is, I guess the personal growth that comes from it, but I've always wanted to get better at speaking, expressing myself and stuff like that.
And I think it's a, it's a great avenue to kind of do that. So.
Yeah. It, it absolutely is. And, and I remember, I mean, when I did my. I first podcast, I started a speaking business and then COVID hit and friend of mine reached out and said, would you like to be a guest on my podcast? And Luke, I [00:13:00] was like, sure. What's a podcast? I, I had absolutely no idea what a podcast was.
And, and he explained it to me and I said, I'll give it a try. And my first podcast I was. Horrible. I had post-it notes all around the camera and he would ask me a question and I'd kind of lean in and I'd read one of the post-it notes provided no value to the audience whatsoever, but I liked it and I thought, well, the first time I drove a car, I wasn't any good at it.
You know, the first time I cooked a meal, I wasn't G, you know, first time I studied algebra wasn't any good at it. So how do you get good at it? You practice, you know, you, you get out there. I mean, I do, I do a weekly YouTube video where I read a story because if you haven't figured out, I love to talk and I talk way too quickly, way too fast.
And so I do that just to get myself to slow down because your voice is one of the most powerful things that you have. I learn that as a, as a swat negotiator.
That's, yeah, that's another interesting, because you're obviously a great speaker now, right? [00:14:00] So another thing that I've been thinking about is I. We compare ourselves to people that are, you know, 20 steps down the road. Okay. So like you, you said the first episode you, you struggled a bit. And I think a lot of people get into that mind space of going, okay, well that person's awesome.
They must just be natural. I don't have it. I'm going to quit. Right? Yeah.
Yeah.
get the yeah, let's get into the, the second truth.
Yeah. So the second truth, embrace the pain and difficulty that we all experience and like. And use that pain and difficulty to make you a stronger and more resilient individual. Our brains, and we talked about this a minute ago, you know, our brains are hardwired to avoid pain and discomfort, you know, and to seek pleasure.
So to the brain, the way things are right now, it's comfortable and it's familiar, and it should just be left alone. But we, you and I know this, most people know this. The only way you're gonna grow, the only way you're gonna get better, the only way you're going to improve. [00:15:00] Is to step outside your comfort zones and do things that make you uncomfortable.
I remember one of the, the other jobs I've had is I was a girl's high school basketball coach, and I would constantly tell my players, you need to get comfortable being uncomfortable. So how do you deal? You know, how do you deal with embracing your pain? And one of the things I recommend, and I do this every day in my life, I'm never going to offer something to somebody that I wouldn't do or that I'm not doing.
Is do one thing every day that scares you, that makes you nervous, that makes you uncomfortable, that's potentially embarrassing. It doesn't have to be a big thing, but if you do those small things every day. When the big disasters in life hit us and they hit all of us, we find out we're, you know, gonna get let go From our job.
We find out we have a chronic, chronic, chronic illness. We find out that the airline we're leaving to go on vacation gets canceled. Whatever that ends up being. If you handle those little things every day, you'll be [00:16:00] much more resilient to handle the big things when they present themselves.
Yeah, that's interesting. It reminds me, I don't know if you've heard of, I guess, the three circles of growth, right? So let's say you've got a circle, another one outside of that, and another one outside of that in the, the center circle is comfort, right? And you're not, you're not moving anywhere. You're not growing in the next circle. Is growth. And that's, we will mis comfort and growth so that that's where you want to be basically sitting. And then if you push yourself too far, that's when you hit trauma. Do you know what I mean? So you've gotta sit in that perfect circle of, of discomfort and, and slowly trying to do little things that scare you every day.
Yeah, and, and it's just uncomfortable things. I, I mean, I'm, I'm a, I'm a cancer patient, so. I have really bad cancer treatments, but when I take showers, I switch the water to that cold at the very end, you know, and just kind of bathe for three or four minutes in that coldness. And I think the jury's still [00:17:00] out on cold therapy in terms of science behind it.
But what I find is. It sucks. I don't like it. It's uncomfortable, but it helps me when I have to go and do my cancer treatments. It makes me more resilient. It makes me able to handle those kind of things and I'm, I'm really gonna date myself. Now, I'm gonna tell you another quick story. So back in 1976. It was the United States Bicentennial Celebration.
It was also my 16th birthday. There was a US gold medal winning Olympic swimmer by the name of Shirley Bache, who had one of the greatest yet simplest quotes. I know you like quotes. So here, here's a go for you. And the and. And this is what she said. She said, winners think about what they want to happen.
Losers think. About what they don't want to happen. So winners can override their negative brains and focus on the things they want to occur. Losers focus on the negative aspects of competition and can't see the value of [00:18:00] pursuing a goal or a dream. I think most people won't get to where they want to be in life because they won't stop whining and complaining about where they're at.
Very few people take personal responsibility for their own success and happiness.
Yeah, that's, that's an interesting one about the ice bath. I know a lot of successful people that, that do ice bath and, you know, it's obviously in fashion right now, but I, I do agree, I do agree with you like i, other than all the physiological benefits that, like you said, the, you know, the science is out, but I think the main benefit you are gonna get. Is, I think as you get into the ice bath or the, the, the cold shower, your mind gets used to putting yourself in discomfort, right? So
doing that on a regular base basis, you actually get used to stepping into discomfort with, which is actually a skill. I think.
I, I do too. It's not something you enjoy, but you realize, you know, like you said, a lot of things, a lot of [00:19:00] things that hold people back are that fear. I'm afraid, you know, what will people say? You know, I, I don't like this. It's uncomfortable, so why should I do it? And I think that kind of rolls back around to what we talked about before.
You know, controlling your mind or it will control you. 'cause your brain's gonna tell you, stop, knock this off, this is uncomfortable. Don't do it. And we listen to our brain. Yeah, sure. You know what, I don't want to do that anymore. But that's where I think, you know, if you look at the other side of that, if you have even a little bit of grit in your life today.
You can be so much further down the road than all those people that are like, eh, this is uncomfortable. I'm not gonna do it. Just have a little bit of grit. See where it takes you.
Yeah. Okay. Number three. What you leave behind is what you weave in the hearts of others.
Yeah. I, again, I, I look at this as kind of a, a legacy truth. What, what are you gonna leave behind? And we had a children's television. Host developer puppeteer, all kinds of things. When I was growing up, a guy by the name of [00:20:00] Fred Rogers he had a show called Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, very famous here in the United States, and when he died in 2003, his family was going through his effects and they found his wallet.
And inside his wallet was a scrap piece of paper on which he had written four simple words, life. Is for service. I, I think that's incredibly important. You know, look, we've seen people, you've probably seen people I know. I have seen people that kind of feel that they're born empty and that when they get outta school and get into life, whatever that looks like for them, that then their job is to fill up their empty cell.
I've gotta make the most amount of money and I've gotta live in the nicest house, and I've gotta have all the latest s gadgets and gizmos. And what I found is we're not born empty. We're born full. We're born with everything we need to be successful, however you define that word already inside you. So our job in life should not [00:21:00] be to fill ourselves up.
Our job in life should be to empty ourselves out. With our unique gifts and talents, certainly for the betterment of ourselves, but also for the betterment of our friends, of our relatives, and of our communities. And I think when you start to look at that in terms of, you know, where is your legacy? What do you want to do?
Where do you want to go? I, I remember when I had my leg amputated and I found out I had tumors in my lungs. I went with my wife to the mortuary and to the cemetery in the church. And I plan my funeral, and because I do these podcasts and I speak to people in person, I actually got some brush back from people who commented that somehow planning my funeral was in some way defeatist.
And I had to remind these folks that last time I checked, we're all gonna die. I don't think anybody's working on a cure for life right now. You know, every one of us is going to die, but not every one of us is going to truly live. And I heard a Native [00:22:00] American Blackfoot proverb years ago that I absolutely love, and you, I'm sure you'll enjoy this too.
And it goes like this. When you were born, you cried, and the world rejoiced. Live your life in such a way so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. That's what I want.
Yeah, the feeling empty and, and trying to feel that emptiness. I mean, that really resonates with, with me. I'll just dive a bit into my story. I'd say, I mean, I've always had that. That feeling of emptiness and, and what that led to in, in my twenties especially is I guess an obsession with wealth creation.
I'm a business owner, entrepreneur and also a hell of a lot of hedonism. Right. Trying to, I guess, fill the void with, with, with drugs and alcohol and stuff like that. I'm just getting to the point. Well, over the last five years, I've got to the point where I realized none of that works and it's not gonna feel that emptiness.
So I'm [00:23:00] sober now and I'm, I'm trying to focus on other things that are gonna lead to fulfillment because I, the, I don't know, I think partly society and I guess marketing in a way. I think it naturally trains people to think they're empty and the way they're gonna feel full is if they purchase this thing and you just end up on this nonstop cycle. So I'm trying to build a framework to figure out what's actually gonna make me feel feel full. And where I'm currently at with that is health wealth. Connection, which I think is what you're speaking about, and inner peace. So I guess if you could dive a bit more into the how service a service or, or helping others can, can help me kind of achieve meaning that would be, that'd be great.
Sure. So I guess let me. kind of look at it from a, a connection point of view. I, I think social media allows, allows us to stay on the surface with people, you know, and, and just, everything's great. Everything's wonderful. [00:24:00] You know, I post my great picture on whatever app you've got up and what, what I find is, is, is interesting and I've been asked, you know, how do you want to be remembered?
And honestly, I don't wanna be, remember, I could care less. I, I mean, a hundred years from now, nobody's gonna remember I was here and that's fine with me. But what I want now and what I think, I think what you're looking for are those connections, those deep connections with other people. And there's a professor here in, in the United States at the University of Chicago who does this experiment with his students.
The idea is to go out and get on a bus and sit down next to a total stranger and in three questions to be deep with that person. So you get on a bus, sit down next to somebody. Hey, how you doing? I'm fine. How are you? Question one, and I'm just making this up. Question two, what do you do for a living? Oh, I'm a doctor.
I. Okay. Question three. Have you always wanted to be a doctor? It doesn't matter what they tell you. If they could say, no, I grew up on a farm and I wanted to be a [00:25:00] veterinarian, but X, Y, and Z happened. Or, my mother died of breast cancer at 40 and she was a doctor and I'm honoring her memory by being a doctor.
Whatever they tell you. Now they're telling you their why, their mission, their purpose in life, and that's where I find, you know, it's in all honesty, somebody's probably coming towards the end of their life, especially with my cancer journey. I really think that that's, for me, that's where I get that, that connection.
That's where I get that poll. That's where I get, I'm making a difference in somebody's life. Now, don't get me wrong, I mean, when I go for my treatments. I have bad days. I mean, you know, I cry. I feel sorry for myself. I get down. But I find when I'm doing that, I'm looking inward. It's, it's, it's all about me.
Woe is me. Look how bad things are. And I find a real simple way to turn that around is to go find somebody else to help, whether it's another cancer patient, whether I'm sitting in the, you know, the waiting room, waiting to go get my treatments, [00:26:00] and somebody comes in and they've got those sort of deer in headlights look that.
This is my first time. I'm scared. I'm nervous. What's gonna happen? Am I gonna die? Am I gonna be in pain? What's And just to roll over to them in my wheelchair and say, hi, I'm Terry. What's your name? You know, these are the greatest nurses that you're gonna deal with. They're gonna take care of you.
Everything's gonna be okay. Just a simple act of seeing another person, not as a cancer patient, not as just another number, but as another person. And I think for me, that really gets to that connection.
Yeah, interesting. I mean, I've been diving, I don't know if you know who Brene Brown is. I've been diving into
her work lot lately. It's really fascinating. I think vulnerability plays a huge part in connection and I think so many of us are just. So I guess masked off from any form of vulnerability.
So, I'm gonna try that bus experiment.
Yeah, exactly. Or, or you know, somebody in a restaurant, somebody in a coffee shop, you know, whatever. Hey, how you Yeah, You know? [00:27:00] I mean, you gotta be careful. It's like, Hey, that guy's hitting on me or something.
Yeah.
no, but it's like you say that sincerity, that vulnerability. And that's one thing I think from a podcast point of view, you know, I'm a person that I don't like to share things.
I know you would never know that, but as much as I talk. I am somebody who, who had a hard time being willing to share the things where I made mistakes or where there are problems or where I'm hurting. And you realize quickly that if you can talk the talk and walk the walk, it gives you the credibility.
You know, if you can just, Hey, I'm tell I'm gonna tell you how to do this. Well have ever done that? Have you ever done that? Well, no. I've done it, I've lived it and things like that. So I think it gives me more credibility, but it took a long time to be able to be that vulnerable and put it out there.
Okay. As long as you don't quit, you can never be defeated.
Yeah, I, I think this is pretty self-explanatory and, and the way this kind of resonates with [00:28:00] me is that someday. My pain is going to end. You know it, man, through surgery, it, man through the development of some new medication. Quite frankly, it may end when I die, but if I quit, if I give up, if I give into pain, then pain is always going to be a part of my life.
And there's a, there's a great story that happened back in the 1950s at Johns Hopkins University here in the United States. There was a professor there that was doing an experiment with rats. So hang with me. I'm gonna tell a rat story. So, you know, and, and it, it was a real simple experiment. He wanted to see how long the average rat could tread water.
So he put rats in a tank of water that was over their head, and the first time around, on average, those rats treaded water for about 15 minutes until they sank and they drown. Now those rats died for science, so I, I mean, we probably wouldn't get away with that today, but back in the fifties, that's the way they did it.
Then he took another group of rats, put 'em [00:29:00] back in that exact same tank of water, and he watched them carefully. And as those rats were faltering, as they were getting ready to sink and drown, he reached in, grabbed them, pulled them out, dried 'em off, and let 'em rest for a while. And then he put those exact same rats in that exact same tank of water.
And the second time around. On average, those rats treaded water for 60 hours. Now think about that first time, 15 minutes, second time, 60 hours, which said to me two things. Number one, the importance of hope in our lives that if we know we're doing the right thing, maybe not today, maybe not this month, maybe not even this year.
But if we know we're doing the right thing, there's a good chance that we can get to where we want to be. Nothing's a hundred percent. And the second thing it taught me is, don't get me wrong, I think everybody has a breaking point, but I think that breaking point is so much further down the road. [00:30:00] We quit.
We give up, we give in, and I'm gonna bring this full circle to the first truth because our brains tell us this hurts. It's uncomfortable, and we should stop it. And so we do. But we also know for marathon runners that marathon runners hit that wall. They get to that point where I can't go on, and we know if you can push through that, if you can push past it, you will get a second win and you will be able to finish the race.
That same thing happens with your mind. You don't have to listen to your mind. You can push through that pain, that ugliness and see where it leads you on the other end.
I mean, so I've, I've, I can definitely speak to that. I mean, I've done a lot of marathons. I've, I did, did an Ironman recently, and I think the second you allow like you, you can't let that. Thought of, I'm potentially gonna pull out. You cannot even let that enter your mind. Right? Like, you've gotta think I'm gonna drag myself over the finish line no matter what happens.
Otherwise you're not gonna make it, you know? And it reminds me a bit of, I don't know if you've read any [00:31:00] of Jim Collins work in Yeah. In, in Good To Great. And he talks about all of the great companies. It's a bit of a paradox, right? But because, you know, they they deal with all their issues, but they. But the CEOs have an unwavering I guess, knowledge or unwavering ho. Like they know that they are going to achieve it, right? If you ask them at any point, they know they're gonna get there. So Yeah, it's, I'm reading John. Rockefeller senior's Book Rockefeller started Standard Oil, kind of got the whole oil industry going here in the States. And I mean, and was like one of the richest man, if not the richest man in the world by the time he was like 35 years old. And it was, I I'm not, nothing's gonna stop me.
Mean, even if I have to pay more money for a refinery that isn't worth it, you know, it's not going to stop me. And, and to have that, I wish I had that, that assertiveness or that knowledge that nothing's gonna stop me. There's no way. mean, [00:32:00] we all doubt. mean, you look at Rockefeller and you're like, he was kind of the Elon Musk of his day and.
He did it at a very young age because it's like, I'm not gonna quit. I'm not gonna give up. Oh, if that doesn't work, that door closes, I'll, I'll open another door and figure it out another way.
Yeah, I think that's why if you look at a lot of the most successful people, they, they didn't actually have a safety net.
You know, there, there's a problem with people when they've got their safety net, where they know that if they just pull out, everything's gonna be fine. Whereas people without that safety net that they know I. That their life's gonna fall apart if they don't achieve this. They tend, they tend to have this, you know, unwavering I guess motivation.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay. I, I did wanna talk about your first book, sustainable Excellence. Alright, so, so what do you think the difference between the first book and the second book? I mean, what's your, you spoke about it being about success. What's your definition of success? Because I struggled a lot. Like I spoke about earlier in my twenties.
If, if you talk to me about [00:33:00] success, I would've told you success means make lots of money. And I I think I was tricking myself like, I don't necessarily think making lots of money. Leads to, I guess, happiness or a good life in general? I mean, I, I'm part of an entrepreneurs organization and I, I, I have a lot of friends who have, well, I, I know a lot of people that have made a hell of a lot of money in their life. They don't seem to me any happier than the general population. And that's what's led me on this, I guess, journey of trying to figure out what is actually a good life, because, you know, I was kidding myself into. Making money. That's a good life, you know, so. So how do you see success?
I, I'll give you a definition of success and. And that, that I came up with back in the seventies and I didn't come up with it. I heard it. I was a big fan of UCLA's men's basketball team and their coach, John Wooden and Wooden was as much a teacher as he [00:34:00] was a coach. And he was probably at the time, the most successful college basketball coach in, in the history of the game.
He'd won seven national championships in a row. You're, you're lucky if you, if a team can win two in a row, they're a dynasty today. And here's his definition of success, and think about that. He's the winningest coach. Think about when you hear this definition. Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction.
Knowing that you did the best to become the best that you were capable of becoming. And the way he used to phrase that, and he was a high school English teacher, before that, he would talk about how if you did your very best and got a C on a on a paper or in the class, were you successful? And he would argue yes.
Whereas if you didn't really put much effort in and got an a. Were you successful? And he would argue no, [00:35:00] because you didn't give it everything you had. And, and we've all, you know, there's all kinds of stories and things written about people who, you lie on the field. The battle knowing that I gave everything I possibly had to, whatever that cause was, whether, whether it was a business, whether it was a military, whether it was a team, whatever it ended up being.
And how many of us do that? How many of us at the end of the day kind of look in the mirror and say, I gave it everything, I gave it everything I had today? Or do we like, eh, maybe 50% today? I'm probably guilty of the latter. You know, A lot of times I don't give it everything I have. Why is that? ' cause it's easy.
But we all know we don't grow unless it's hard. Gotta be hard.
I, I often see, like, I think of putting your effort in as a muscle, right? You get used to it. you know, you've just gotta get the momentum going. And I do have a. Dunno, a fear or a concern these days with, with, I guess with AI and chat GPT. People focus too much [00:36:00] on the outcome. Not enough on the process.
Which, which, which sounds like, you know, what, what you are getting towards. Right. So, I mean, I've started writing recently and I was listening to, to Simon Sinek the other day, and he was speaking about writing his book and, and, and he said the value of it was the person he became from crystallizing his thoughts. Right. And the issue with. AI is, we can, or, I guess, you know, anything is we can produce an outcome without putting in the work. And the problem is that actually denies you of the self-growth that you get going through the process. How does that, how does that resonate with you?
It, it, it absolutely does. I, I mean, I think AI can make you lazy. And, when I wrote my next book, when I wrote for Truths and a Lie, I didn't use AI at all. I never, never opened I didn't want it to [00:37:00] be a crutch, you know? I wanted it to be my stuff, but, but I'll be honest with you, you know, I, you take the book and it's like, okay, then you give it to the editor and you get back and you're like.
I am the worst writer in the world. You know, I mean, you come back with this, this, I, I'm, I'm an idiot. You know, like, well, you're a good writer. I'm like, no, I'm not a writer. I'm just a guy who writes, you know, I always kind of say I was a basketball player, understood basketball. I was a student of the game.
I. I'm not a writer yet. I'm just a guy who writes, but I do, I'll write a blog every week and I just write about whatever I feel like writing about. You know, sometimes I write about names, sometimes I write about my uncle, so whatever it ends up being, but write it. Now, I will use Grammarly. You know, did I miss a comm or did I spell a word wrong?
I will. I use that, but I don't, I don't want it to be a crutch. I want my mind to generate those ideas and then say I agree with those. I don't agree with those, and I think that's, I think it's a product of society today. Because you look at younger people [00:38:00] that are, you know, that are in later stage high school or in college, I need a safe space.
No, no. I mean, physically, yes. I'm not saying, you know, you should be in danger physically, but your values, your morals, your I ideas, your beliefs should be challenged in school. That's where, that's, you know, do I believe this? Do I not? Do I like this? Do I not like it? What, what is that? And we don't wanna challenge ourselves.
So AI is perfect. You know, I don't have to challenge myself in the class 'cause I can use AI to generate what my brain should have done.
But the problem is like, exactly what you're alluding to is then everybody just sits in that comfort circle and then you don't, you know, you don't get any growth. I mean,
so, so, yeah.
Yeah. I've been but the people want growth. They don't want growth. They want safety, but they don't understand what safety means. You know, you've gotta be challenged in your life. If you're not challenged, you're not growing. And if you're not growing, you're dying. [00:39:00] I probably am dying. I and I, I like the growing part a lot better.
So.
Yeah, well, so I don't know. Safe safety is almost addictive, right? Like, I mean, so the, the reason why I've started writing is I wanna, I wanna actually, well first of all, it's not just writing. I wanna start publishing because I, I wanna figure out what I think and, and what I'm willing to stand behind because I think naturally I have this. I don't know, people pleasing personality where you just kind of agree with a lot of people and you don't really crystallize what you think about things. So that's the main reason I've been getting into writing. I'd love to hear about your experience with writing, what you've got out of it, how it's been for you.
Yeah, so I never, never expected to write a book. NN never wanted to write a book. There's, there's kind of an old joke that says, when we talk to God, it's called prayer. When God talks to us, it's called schizophrenia. So God has never talked to me and said, Hey Terry, you know, you should write a book or you should write a book.
But what I think God did, [00:40:00] and I have a very strong faith in God, is put enough people in my path that started to make the same suggestion. Terry ought to write a book. Terry ought to write a book. Terry ought to write a book. And so I kind of paid attention to that. As I've gotten older, I'm like, maybe I ought see if there's something to that's.
So Sustainable Excellence was really a book that was born out of two conversations. One was with a former player that I had coached who had moved to the area in the United States where my wife and I live with her fiance. And the four of us had dinner one night. And I remember saying to her after dinner that I was excited that she was living close and I could watch her find and live her purpose.
And Luke, she got real quiet for a while, and then she looked at me and she said, well, coach, what do you think my purpose is? I said, I have absolutely no idea what your purpose is, but that's what your life should be about finding the reason or the reasons you were put on the face of this earth using your unique gifts and talents and living that reason.
So that was one [00:41:00] conversation. And then I had a young man from college reach out to me on social media and he said, what do you think are the most important things I should learn? Not to just be successful in my job or in business, but to be successful in life? And I didn't wanna give 'em the, you know, get up early, work hard, help out.
I didn't wanna give 'em sort of the cliches that we already know. So I spent some time taking some notes and came up with these 10 thoughts, these 10 ideas, these 10 principles. And so I sent them to 'em and then I stepped back and I was like, okay, I got a life story that fits underneath that principle. Or I know somebody whose life emulates.
This principle. literally during the four to five month period where I was healing, after I had my leg amputated, I sat down at the computer and I built stories. And they're real stories about real people underneath each of the principles. And that's how the book came to be. But I, I'll give you these.
Were I had, I had two rules for writing. I said, every day I'm gonna write a minimum of one page. [00:42:00] Except Sunday. I'm gonna take Sunday off. I'm gonna write six days a week, minimum of one page. And secondly, I'm not going to edit anything. And Luke, I would sit down and I would, you know, one day I'd write and be like, this is total garbage.
This is never gonna make it into a book. But then the next day it would be better, and then the next day it would stink again, and then the next day it would better. So eventually I had sort of this hodgepodge of all this stuff. And then I, when I felt I had the first draft, I just started to go through and I'm like, that's out.
That's out. That's no, that's gonna stay. That's out, that's out, that's out. And eventually I had this book, and it kind of goes back to something you were saying earlier. We tend to think that we sort of start at a, and we work at something and we go to z. And I know this from when I was a kid playing basketball.
You know, you would start at a and you'd work real hard and you'd get better, and then you'd plateau and then you'd work even harder and you'd get worse. And then you'd work harder and you'd, you'd, you'd go up and then you'd plateau and [00:43:00] you'd go down. I mean, so it, it's more of a zigzag kind of thing. You end up at the same place if you stick with it.
But I think we think a lot of times that it's gonna be linear. Life is linear. Life Well, the, oh, the other problem is when you hit those points where you go down a bit, that's when most people quit. Right? So what
do tell yourself in tho in those down times?
What if, what if I can get better? You know what I, I, I, you know, I got better. I know I started here and yeah, I'm in a ditch right here. I mean, it's kinda like a, a baseball player, you know, being in a slump. But if you think about baseball, if of 10 bats, if you get three hits. You're gonna be a Hall of Famer, you're gonna be in the Hall of Fame so you can fail 70% of the time and still be a hall of famer.
Again, I think you gotta enjoy the grind. It's not about what I'm gonna get out of it. It's about what? It's about the work. I loved playing basketball. I [00:44:00] loved watching film. I loved understanding how things or players did things and things like that. And I guess, let, let me share this with you and I, I think this is really important.
I wish I would've known this when I was younger. I think it's more important who you work with and who you work for than it actually is The work that you do, find people that care about you. Find people that are willing to invest in you. Find people that wanna see you succeed. Hit your wagon to those people and climb your mountains together.
So how do you know you're with the wrong people and how do you find the right people?
I guess I, I'd answer that. Alex Muzzi, if I, if I'm saying that right, I don't know if you know, he, he's, he's a of a, a blogger and I, I heard him once say, well, how do you know if you're gonna marry this person? You know, how do you, how do you know if that's the right person for you? And I think the same kind of thing fits here.
And he said, there's a bunch of things you need to consider, but there's [00:45:00] two things you should look at. One, because that person's in your life. Are your metrics better? Are you smarter? Are you reading better books? are you going to the opera instead of, you know, some goofy, 15 Marvel movie that you know has been, been out 15 different variations of it.
are your metric, do you have better friends? Are, are you eating better food? Are you getting better rest? That was number one. And number two is would, if you were in a foxhole with that person and the shooting started, would they stay in the foxhole with you or would they cut and run and get out? I guess I would ask.
Ask yourself those questions. Are the people you're hanging around with, making you better, making you smarter, making you more well off, and in really dark times and really bad times. Are those people gonna hang around? And, but we know what I mean. What happens when somebody says to you, Hey, Luke. Hmm, I I don't think you should do that.
I, I think that's a bad situation for you. You know, that's, that's not something you should do. What do we do? We're [00:46:00] like, Hey, get outta my life. No, I'm gonna do this. You know, you're not my friend anymore. No. You want people in your life that love you enough to be able to sacrifice the relationship with you in order to tell you the truth.
I want those people around me. I said, Terry, you're messing up. Don't do that. That's not a good thing. Those are the people that make you better.
Yeah. The way one of my mentor put it is are the pe are you both of you, are you adding value to each other's life or are you detracting it? That's the big one. And the other one I like is this, this is actually comes from a, a, a business training I went to and you look at all your staff and you're like, if you. Let's say if tomorrow you had to leave everything behind you and go on a spaceship to Mars, who would you take with you and why? And if you do that activity with the people in your life, you, you soon find out, you know, who are the people you trust, who are the people you want to hang around with? But it's so important because we are the product of the people we hang around with. I mean, we learned that in COVID, we're not good by [00:47:00] ourselves. We need to be with each other, you know?
Yeah, you mentioned Alex Hormo. I mean, what I got, one of my favorite sayings from him that's really helped me in my life is this is what hard feels like, right? So
we all want to do hard things. We all want to achieve hard things. And then the problem is what you were speaking about before. When we have that downturn and things get difficult, that's when people quit. But I, I like to tell myself. You know, you, you wanna achieve something hard. This is what your hard feels like. This is what you signed up for. So,
But people don't sign up for that. They, they want the easy, most people there. There's a, there's an entrepreneur here in the United States by the name of Ed Millet. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. USA today voted him the Entrepreneur of the year back in 2023. And, he said something. And when I first heard this, I was like, Hmm, I don't know if I agree with this.
I got, I gotta think about this for a while. This is something that I agree with. But he talked about the four types of people in the world, and he said the first [00:48:00] group are the unmotivated. And he said, that's the vast majority of people that you will encounter in your life. And the second group he talks about are the motivated, and he says, that's kind of a carrot and stick approach to life.
If I do this, I will get that. He says It's kind of low level, but it works for a lot of people to have a very happy and successful life. The third group he talks about are the inspirational people. So if you're an inspirational person, the the word inspiration coming from two words in spirit. So if you're inspirational, you move people with your energy.
And then the last group he talks about are the aspirational people where people aspire. To be like you. And sometimes if I do, you know, if I'm talking to a group and it's, it's not so formal, I'll tell that story and be like, all right, show of hands, how many people are unmotivated? Nobody ever raises their hand.
Nobody ever says, Hey, yeah, I, I'm one of those people [00:49:00] that's, you know, I don't care. I, I'm not motivated. So we don't see ourselves that way. But I think a good look in the mirror is, you know, what are you doing with your life? You know, if you're 35 years old and you're still living in your parents' basement and you're playing, you know, video games all day long.
Probably not, you're probably not real motivated in life.
Yeah. So the last thing I wanted to talk about or ask you about is your time as a SWOT negotiator. What did you learn from that experience?
Oh, a lot. So couple things and, and this, this was a formula that we were given early on and I'll, I'll give you the formula and then I'll tell you why they gave it to it. And it has to do with how we as human beings communicate with each other. And the formula was 7 30, 8 55. So 7% of how we communicate with another person are the words that we use.
And think how many times you've said something, you'll be like, Hmm, wish I hadn't have said that, or I wish I would've said it differently. That's only 7% of how that message comes [00:50:00] across. 38% is the tone of voice that you use. Are you really excited? You can't wait to tell the person you're talking like this, or are you kind of, you know, Winnie the Poh er, like, things are not gonna work.
This is really bad. What's your tone of voice? And then 55%. So more than half of how that message comes across. Is your body language and your facial expressions. And the reason they gave us that formula because was because if, if somebody had a gun and they were barricaded in a room, I was not in the room with that person.
That would've not have been safe for us to do. So I didn't have the luxury of saying something to somebody and sort of see them kind of roll their eyes and be like, oh, what an idiot. I can't believe Terry said that to me. So we had to get good, certainly based on what, you know, with the situation, based on what people were saying, but also what they weren't saying and how they were saying it.
And Luke, there were a lot of times we were on scene. We had no idea [00:51:00] why we were there, what, you know, what was going on, what brought us to this point, why did this person do what they did? And so we would start out with tactical empathy. I think today you can get rid of the word tactical and just talk about empathy.
Help me to understand what's going on, where you're coming from, what caused you to do this, whatever language you want to use. And again, the important word there is help me to understand, not agree. I mean, if you were a homicide suspect that just murdered three people, I wasn't gonna say, oh yeah, I totally agree, you should have done that.
But by getting to a point of understanding, understanding leads to trust, and trust leads to a point where I could hopefully get you out safely. And I'll just end with this, or I can go on for hours on this, but one of the things that we used, we would use how and what questions we would stay away from why questions I.
Because why? Questions sound accusatory. Think about when you were growing up, you do [00:52:00] something stupid. Your parents be like, Luke, why did you do that? Ooh, sorry mom. You know, I shouldn't have done that. I mean, I could look at you and say, Luke, what's yours? You, why did you decide to wear that today? And you might be like, Ooh, does Terry not like what I'm wearing today?
I can get to the same answer by saying, Hey Luke, what made you decide to wear that outfit today? It's a softer question. It lands better with people. So I always try to use how and what questions with people stay away from the why questions.
That's interesting. I, I think that's definitely applicable into, I guess, normal life and business as well. I recently read, oh God, what's the book called? I. Non-violent communication.
I'm not sure if you've read that one.
Okay. It's a, yeah, it's a fantastic book. And, and they say, you know, the, the majority of our I guess the majority of reasons why we can't communic communicate with each other is 'cause the majority of our communication is accusatory.
Right. So I think how and what questions, it's a fantastic way to kind of combat that. So.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, and, and again, it's, it's using your voice. It's being [00:53:00] curious, you know, it's, it's mirroring, it's saying the last three things that, or the last three words that you said are the most important thing you said, but in an accusatory way. Well, you don't think you could do that and then go silent.
I mean, again, I, I can talk your ear off. But I'm also really good at listening, and I'm also really good when I need to be quiet, to be quiet and listen for either what's not being said or what is being said. And that's an art, and you kind of have to, you have, you have to play with that. And it's, it's, it's kind of fun.
I mean, my wife is in the financial services industry and we used to go to the obligatory Christmas party every year, you know, and, and I would always be like, all right, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna find five of your colleagues and I'm gonna come out at the end of the night and we tell you everything about 'em.
You know where they went to school, how they met their wife, how many kids they have, where they enjoy vacation, all that stuff. And they said, not only that is Monday morning when you go to work, they're gonna come to you and tell you what a great guy that I am. And they're gonna do that because all I did was ask them how and what [00:54:00] questions about themselves we're narcissistic.
You wanna be a great conversationalist? Just ask people about themselves and be quiet. And people never reciproc not, not, never, rarely reciprocate with, well, where did you go to school? Or How did you meet your wife? And that they don't, they love talking about themselves and it makes you a great conversationalist, especially people that are shy.
I don't, I don't like talking to people, but just ask people questions about themselves. Everybody will love you.
Wow. That's interesting. You mentioned in passing, mirroring what's mirroring and what, what's the purpose?
So mirroring is, is the, the purpose is to gain trust. So if, if I say to you something like, well, Luke, it sounds like, and whatever it is, it, it sounds like that you really hate your mother, and, and if I hit it on the head, I. You're gonna be like, yeah, I, I really do hate my mother. And Oh, Terry gets me, Terry understands me.
And that was, that was another part of, of the emotion. And why hostage negotiating is so [00:55:00] exhausting, because you gotta get in the weeds with these people. I mean, if somebody's yelling and screaming and rooting and hollering about their mother, and you say something like. Well, it seems like you don't like your mother.
No. You totally miss what they're saying. You've gotta say something like, well, Luke, it sounds like you hate your mother. Yes, I do hate my mother. And that, again, that builds trust. Terry understands me. Terry gets me, and down the road gets to a point where I can hopefully get you out safely. We're, when you're yelling and screaming, we're not talking about putting the gun down.
We're not talking about letting the hostages go. We're not talking about any of that. We need you to burn off a lot of that emotional energy. That's why houses, negotiations sometimes takes 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 hours.
Wow. Very interesting. Terry Tucker, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Luke, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this. Sorry, I talked your ear off, so.
Fantastic. Thanks. [00:56:00]